Dumb question about sumps...

[FINWIN]

Is it even possible to have a sump above the tank? Off and on I've looked at the Eshopps because they're basically plug and play. I'm just sooo paranoid about water over flows.

I've also been trying to find a basic diagram of how they work online, but haven't been successful.

 

[duanes]

I have kept above tank sumps (planted refugiums) many times in the past.

Below is a 20 gal tank, kept in a window box, to take advantage of a southern exposures sunlight.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/alb...ghres/047.jpg?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds,

In the one above I experimented using water hyacinth, and below using Papyrus (umbrella palm)

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i97/dstuer/plants/papyrus/.highres/IMG_4958_zpsb8d018da.jpg?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds

I have also experimented with in between tank and sump sumps, where the tanks overflowed by gravity into a planted tank, and then into an equipment sump further below

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i97/dstuer/plants/papyrus/.highres/081.jpg?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds

 

[FINWIN]

These were the Eshopps I've been eyeing for some time. If anyone uses these, give me your opinion. They seem straightforward in design:

 

[Backfromthedead]

Of course, called an overhead sump. Works the opposite of a traditional sump in that you pump water into it from the display tank and gravity returns the flow back. You would still need an overflow, but it would be in the overhead sump, not the display.

 

[FINWIN]

Of course, called an overhead sump. Works the opposite of a traditional sump in that you pump water into it from the display tank and gravity returns the flow back. You would still need an overflow, but it would be in the overhead sump, not the display.

Would you need to calculate flow rate back into the tank?

 

[Backfromthedead]

Would you need to calculate flow rate back into the tank?

You would set your flow with the pump in the display tank. Most quality pumps come with a controller these days so you could set it at whatever you want and adjust the overflow drain on the sump to match.

The overflow drain in the overhead sump should be set up just like any other, use a gate or ball valve on the outflow to adjust flow out of the sump into the display. With the pump running at your desired flow, adjust the valve until your sump is not sucking air and matching the flow into the sump.

You will definitely want an emergency overflow installed as well, just an open drain (no valve) that leads to the display tank that will overflow the water should your main drain be clogged somehow.

This probably reads a lot more complicated than it really is. Just think of it in terms of water pressure in=water pressure out. All youre doing is trying to match the flows between the two tanks using only gravity on one end and electric power on the other.

 

[Sassafras]

Probably the safest sump setup for those with overphlobia would be a sump that is on the same level as the display tank. Water would be pumped out of the tank into the sump and flow back to the tank with no change of elevation. If the sump is above the tank or below that tank, an overflow potential will exist. An overflow may occur when:

1. The drain from the upper tank, aquarium or sump, becomes blocked, water continues to pump from the lower tank to the upper tank, which may overflow if the pumpable volume in the lower tank is great enough. This would be most likely in an overhead sump situation since the aquarium volume will likely be greater than the sump.

2. Power goes out or pump fails, the upper tank, aquarium or sump, will drain into the lower tank until the water level in the upper tank is at the level of the overflow. This is would be most likely in an under-aquarium sump since the aquarium volume will likely be greater than the sump.

The answer to preventing overflow in either situation is to make sure that there is enough freeboard (spare unused water volume) in the sump and aquarium to be able to hold the extra water that would happen in either case above. This is done by (1) placement of the overflow as close to the operating water level in the upper tank as possible so that the least amount of water possible drains from the tank if the pump stops. Also, (2) run the operating level low enough so that if the overflow blocks, there is enough volume to handle what will be pumped up from the lower tank. Combine this with (3) a large enough lower tank, with a low enough operating water level, to have enough volume to hold more water than can drain from the tank and (4) keep the volume of the pump section of the lower tank small enough so that there is no more water than the upper tank can hold.

Hmmmm! This was harder to explain than I thought it would be and I probably didn't do a very good job. Hope it may be helpful. This is the way I set up my tanks and sumps and I have never had an overflow (knock on wood).

 

[FINWIN]

Probably the safest sump setup for those with overphlobia would be a sump that is on the same level as the display tank. Water would be pumped out of the tank into the sump and flow back to the tank with no change of elevation. If the sump is above the tank or below that tank, an overflow potential will exist. An overflow may occur when:

1. The drain from the upper tank, aquarium or sump, becomes blocked, water continues to pump from the lower tank to the upper tank, which may overflow if the pumpable volume in the lower tank is great enough. This would be most likely in an overhead sump situation since the aquarium volume will likely be greater than the sump.

2. Power goes out or pump fails, the upper tank, aquarium or sump, will drain into the lower tank until the water level in the upper tank is at the level of the overflow. This is would be most likely in an under-aquarium sump since the aquarium volume will likely be greater than the sump.

The answer to preventing overflow in either situation is to make sure that there is enough freeboard (spare unused water volume) in the sump and aquarium to be able to hold the extra water that would happen in either case above. This is done by (1) placement of the overflow as close to the operating water level in the upper tank as possible so that the least amount of water possible drains from the tank if the pump stops. Also, (2) run the operating level low enough so that if the overflow blocks, there is enough volume to handle what will be pumped up from the lower tank. Combine this with (3) a large enough lower tank, with a low enough operating water level, to have enough volume to hold more water than can drain from the tank and (4) keep the volume of the pump section of the lower tank small enough so that there is no more water than the upper tank can hold.

Hmmmm! This was harder to explain than I thought it would be and I probably didn't do a very good job. Hope it may be helpful. This is the way I set up my tanks and sumps and I have never had an overflow (knock on wood).

Thanks you answered a question before I could ask it...I wondered if an 'above' sump had to be near tank level to avoid the overflow problem. Do you have pictures or a diagram of your setup?

Back in 2020 the 225 flooded for an hour (my fault entirely but a different situation) I don't want to go through that nightmare again.

 

[duanes]

Although there are standard flow calculation rates for certain size pipes, drill hole sizes, and pumps based on unimpeded plumbing, and head loss, its always a bit random for me, in that any sump, with media (be it above, or below), with plants, and with root that evolve over time, they will react differently as things evolve, and change, with the challanges presented by any aquarium .
So its never a set it and forget it situation for me.
And I just use old school valves to throttle back, or open flow per the observation of the moment.
Iinstead of the high tech pumps, or controllers available these days (hell, I barely know how to use the phone I have)
I just use old school valves, and adjust them according to observation.

I know there are apps available to change flow rates throughout the day or night, or slow down at feeding schedule times, or with CO2 injection, but I'm too old to bother with that.
There are even apps that call you, to let you know is water is overflowing on the floor, or if flow has been impeded.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i97/dstuer/overflows/.highres/IMG_0742_zps95b48373.jpg?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i97/dstuer/overflows/.highres/IMG_8093_zps4d6f43c5.jpg?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds

Sometimes you eat the bar, and sometimes.....it eats you.

 

[duanes]

One thing I do to avoid overflows to the floor or other, especially because (outside) rain can over flow my tanks, and sumps,
or my lack of sufficient attention when refilling after a water change.
I use these low tech redundant overflow contraptions.



The outflow tube, can be aimed into a buck (or at a drain), or my case, a specific area of the garden, to divert any excess.
The video below is not mine, but where I got the plans.