Speaking of TSN runts, dinks, and Co...

thebiggerthebetter

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Although wednesday13 wednesday13 might disagree, I still tend to think our farm-culled TSNs may inherently not live long.

So here is another example. Jeff aka V victor448 donated this TSN to us about a year or two ago. It was several years old back then and only ~18". Other than that, it looked good.

It had done well in 4500 gal with RTCs and Co. Had been feeding exceptionally well but only grew to 23". Last week it was still feeding well on pellets. This week it stopped and within one week it died. No external damage, no puncture wounds, no bite marks. Sorry, Jeff.

I think it died of natural causes, probably at ~5 years old, consistent with the OP case. I didn't see anything glaringly wrong when I cut it open.

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Speaking of TSN deaths, a peer also donated his 26"-er to us some weeks back. It's been fed hot dogs all its life (has been ~7-8 years with that peer, who was second owner) and it had a beer tummy. I guessed it was due to fat deposits or just too much food. It had done well for a week and then the next night it was killed by persistent attempts to swallow it from the tail end.

It was pretty mellow in general, which is not a good thing when fish go into my aggressive 4500 gal - the old timers think every new fish that goes in there is their food. So I stuck a large landing net in the tank for several days, to help the new comer adjust with less stress. Most old timers don't like the net or the newness that it introduces and stay away in the corners, a bit stressed out, and hence, don't bug new fish.

They "killed" it about 2-3 days after I removed the net. It was still alive in the morning and I rehomed it to 240 gal. I had other cats survive the injuries the TSN had sustained but it died in 2 days and when I cut it open I found out why - the fish was chuck full of eggs and hence was weakened.

Never seen TSN with eggs before. Two huge sacks of eggs. On the upside, its internal organs looked clean, no fat deposits at all! Those must have been very lean hot dogs.

Anyhow, live and learn.
 

thebiggerthebetter

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Our biggest TSN has died from what looked like natural causes. 28" (to the base fork as properly measured). Was donated about 1.5 years ago.

It lived in poor water before coming to us, in 400 gal with another 2' TSN, 2' niger, 2' RTC, 2' arowana, 2' marbled Pim, 2' TSNxRTC hybrid, and a pacu. At least at the point of the rescue.

It is likely that this TSN's health was heavily compromised by prior keeping conditions. I rescued all the fish from that 400 gal. The other TSN died en-route to home on a 50 min trip - this means it was very weak to start with. All others are still alive and apparently well today.

Down to my last TSN, the one I got from snookn21 three+ years ago. It is also ~28". Lost its brother from the same batch a while ago - that's the one in the OP.

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Just Toby

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Out of interest what nitrate level does your tank run at? I lost a few fish in a tank a long time ago and despite a good water change regime that tank had nitrate off the scale, I found I had high nitrate in the tap water (over that of safety standards) and it turned out to be run off from farmers fields getting in to the supply.

It is worth checking as some fish just seem not to do well when the nitrate creeps up on an established tank....worth checking just to rule out, I know many puffers will die in high nitrate water.
 
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thebiggerthebetter

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Out of interest what nitrate level does your tank run at? I lost a few fish in a tank a long time ago and despite a good water change regime that tank had nitrate off the scale, I found I had high nitrate in the tap water (over that of safety standards) and it turned out to be run off from farmers fields getting in to the supply.

It is worth checking as some fish just seem not to do well when the nitrate creeps up on an established tank....worth checking just to rule out, I know many puffers will die in high nitrate water.
Thanks, bro. I keeps tabs on all my parameters, nitrate especially because I am maxed out at my WC capacity. The 24,000 gal system, where these TSNs lived, runs on average around 40-60 ppm. Not to my liking but this is the best I can do. Will up my continuous water change in the future when I install additional RO membranes on my well water. Need $$$. All of my nitrate is from feed. I have zero nitrate in my water, which I make in house - 85% RO water mixed with 15% well water.

40-60 ppm nitrate cannot account for my observations. A few hundred could. Nitrate becomes a problem when it approaches 500-1000 ppm, IIRC.

As a side note, analytical chemistry scientists tell us we cannot measure nitrate reliably at home anyway, but a rough relative measure is doable.

Anyhoo, I maintain my strawman proposal that our TSNs culled from farms are not only small-growing but also short-lived. I expect them to last 5-10 years as opposed to several decades with good genes.
 
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Just Toby

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Thanks for that, I agree that at those levels of nitrate you can rule that out, most test kits scales end at 100ppm and I think a lot of people do get up in the 500's very easily and not know it.

Thanks for sharing.
 
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thebiggerthebetter

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thebiggerthebetter

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thebiggerthebetter

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Well, the last of the giants has called it quits. 34" at 7 years old.

Sucks. Growing out a show size specimen for 7 years and losing it, currently I presume to two factors - it's a runt, in the vein of this thread, and my diet was bad for long term health. For the past 2 years the fish mostly ate chep Zeigler finfish silver aquaculture pellets, refusing fish. The pellets are mostly wheat, beans, and corn. So no big surprise I killed the TSN so quickly with these pellets (more here for those interested https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/...t-too-many-show-fish-need-better-food.728257/ ).

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* * * *

Brian fishhead0103666 fishhead0103666 and Tobias Tobiassorensen Tobiassorensen helped me get 5 wild caught TSN from Mike of AquaScape mid-October 2019. Labeled as orinocoense but could simply be fasciatum, $40 a fish at 4.5". Mike swore they were wild caught in Colombia as I don't want to deal with captive bred anymore.

Arrival, Oct 15, 2019, and 1-month update, Nov 15, 2019:




Yet, a bit unexpectedly, my "TSN curse" found a way and these guys showed to be susceptible to some unknown pathogen in my water, similar to other Pimelodidae - firewood catfish, juruense, rousseauxii, and ornate pimelodus. They have arrived and everything was good. They grew an incredible 4" or so in the first month with us and then one by one three perished in the manner similar to how these other pims listed died - for no good reason, refusing to eat, losing balance, swimming erratically, spinning, and dying.


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The remaining duo is now about 22" and one of them has become finicky with food, which worries me, so I decided to continue keeping them in a 240 gal despite not enough space but under close observation and supervision.

29 minutes and on:


 
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