Water Changes...Unnecessary?

[RD.]

Actually, what I said was;

In fact most studies involving fish, involve fish grown and sold for commercial purposes. Who cares what a fingerling rainbow trout can tolerate? I mean nice to know, but certainly doesn't mean that one can necessarily extrapolate that data, to say the same would hold true with some wild synodontis collected in Lake Tanganyika.

 

[RD.]

I also never said that in his book that some of the same studies being referenced, were not the same as what you had posted. Seems to me someone has a serious issue with reading comprehension skills - and it shows. lol

 

[squint]

That almost no studies have examined the clinical effects of nitrate on fish (except mortality rate) but effects appear to reflect damage to hemoglobin.

He goes on to state, that eggs and fry of both rainbow trout and cutthroat trout fry are adversely affected, and in some cases can die, after exposure for 30 days to as little as 1.1-7.6 mg N03 - N/L. How many whopping units is that in your API test kit?

He also explains the difference between acute toxicity, and chronic, and how nitrate is more of a chronic problem.

7.6 mg/L NO3-N is 33.6 mg/L NO3-. That's pretty close to the 40 ppm Internet limit and that's with the most vulnerable life stage of one of the most sensitive species.

There's a huge increase in nitrate tolerance from eggs/fry to fingerlings. This appears to be true in every species studied. Rainbow trout appear to be one of the most sensitive yet fingerlings have 96 hr LC50 of 1310 mg/L NO3-N. Unless aquarium species are even more sensitive than salmonids, they'll be able to tolerate as much but very likely much more nitrate.

Noga's book was published before the Monsees 2016 article which studies the effects of nitrate in great detail.

 

[squint]

In fact most studies involving fish, involve fish grown and sold for commercial purposes. Who cares what a fingerling rainbow trout can tolerate?

Noga cares.

 

[squint]

I also never said that in his book that some of the same studies being referenced, were not the same as what you had posted. Seems to me someone has a serious issue with reading comprehension skills - and it shows. lol

You getting mad, bro? Because you're losing?

 

[RD.]

Allow me to further explain, I have kept bluegill in an aquarium, they are some of the most hardy fish that I have ever owned. Tough as nails, and can take a LOT when it comes to water parameters. I have also kept species such as Synodontis petricola/lucipinnis, which myself and others have referred to as canaries in a coal mine. Any change in water parameters will be noticed by this species of cats, and this species will often be the first to react to any form of toxin. If over many years of fish keeping, one keeps enough species of fish, you eventually come to understand that not all fish can be lumped together when it comes to acute or chronic exposure to various elements - be it temperature, salinity, oxygen levels, free ammonia levels, etc-etc. So why anyone would think this would be any different with nitrates, is beyond me.

 

[RD.]

squint, you are what, a junior in college?

Come back in 40 years, bring some friends and pack a lunch. lol

Now please answer the question.........

How many whopping units is that in your API test kit?

He goes on to state, that eggs and fry of both rainbow trout and cutthroat trout fry are adversely affected, and in some cases can die, after exposure for 30 days to as little as 1.1-7.6 mg N03 - N/L.

 

[squint]

Allow me to further explain, I have kept bluegill in an aquarium, they are some of the most hardy fish that I have ever owned. Tough as nails, and can take a LOT when it comes to water parameters. I have also kept species such as Synodontis petricola/lucipinnis, which myself and others have referred to as canaries in a coal mine. Any change in water parameters will be noticed by this species of cats, and this species will often be the first to react to any form of toxin. If over many years of fish keeping, one keeps enough species of fish, you eventually come to understand that not all fish can be lumped together when it comes to acute or chronic exposure to various elements - be it temperature, salinity, oxygen levels, free ammonia levels, etc-etc. So why anyone would think this would be any different with nitrates, is beyond me.

Now please answer the question.........

How many whopping units is that in your API test kit?

He goes on to state, that eggs and fry of both rainbow trout and cutthroat trout fry are adversely affected, and in some cases can die, after exposure for 30 days to as little as 1.1-7.6 mg N03 - N/L.

Which is why Noga gave a range of 885-8,850 mg/L NO3-... Let's be on safe side and use some of the most sensitive fish ever studied to set the low range. That's a 96 hour LC50 of 1,355 mg/L NO3-N or 5,998 mg/L NO3- for rainbow trout fingerlings. Does that value justify a limit of <20 or 40 ppm for aquarium fish? Keep in mind that any given fish species is likely to be even more tolerant of nitrate than rainbow trout.

Find me a study where an aquarium species was found to be much more susceptible to nitrate than rainbow trout.

I already answered that question. I use a Hach DR/900, by the way. I only own an API nitrate test because I was interested in testing it against nitrate standards of various concentration.

 

[Coryloach]

7.6 mg/L NO3-N is 33.6 mg/L NO3-. That's pretty close to the 40 ppm Internet limit and that's with the most vulnerable life stage of one of the most sensitive species.

There's a huge increase in nitrate tolerance from eggs/fry to fingerlings. This appears to be true in every species studied. Rainbow trout appear to be one of the most sensitive yet fingerlings have 96 hr LC50 of 1310 mg/L NO3-N. Unless aquarium species are even more sensitive than salmonids, they'll be able to tolerate as much but very likely much more nitrate.

Noga's book was published before the Monsees 2016 article which studies the effects of nitrate in great detail.

Pretty much. The issues arising in fish tanks are not due to high nitrates, not at all in the ranges our fish tanks are at but due to total accumulation of compounds altering the water chemistry negatively and oxygen deprivation due to high nitrification levels, especially in overstocked tanks. Consider that, in order for a tank to reach high nitrate levels, for each nitrate molecule, it has stolen 4 oxygen ones from the tank and fish. Oxygen has very low solubility in water....Additionally, a tank is producing toxic ammonia 24/7. High nitrate levels are always linked to high initial ammonia levels and high nitrification levels, hence low oxygen conditions which fish don't tolerate well at all. Add to that dirty filters in which partial denitrification occurs, also because of the ever dipping oxygen levels, and in turn releasing toxic Nttrite in the system, going unnoticed.....So essentially all the annecdotal evidence on high nitrates has actually nothing to do with the actual nitrate levels....

Water changes are essential, but not due to nitrate levels, lol. I haven't owned a nitrate test in years....

 

[RD.]

Find me a study where an aquarium species was found to be much more susceptible to nitrate than rainbow trout.

The vast majority of ornamental species of fish haven't been studied long term, for anything. We don't even know the nutritional requirements of most ornamental species of fish.