Washing Your Bio

RD.

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Nevermind, it's all good. Just some new and old history that still surfaces around here. My only real reason for posting here was to serve a warning, IME the majority of people keeping fish in glass boxes have no idea what their disinfectant residuals are, and sometimes bad things can happen to the uninformed.
 

skjl47

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Hello; I have pondered this very question. There must be a mechanism by which bb eventually show up in tanks undergoing a fishless cycle. We take an empty tank, fill it with tap water and some liquid ammonia then in some weeks both strains of bb show up.
I have never searched about this but had dismissed the notion the bb are in the tap water because of the chlorine/chloramine. I once had figured maybe bacterium spores but some reading seemed to suggest the bb types do not form spores. Also considered air borne dust but this is also not likely if the bb do not form spores or some such similar dormant form.
This might be a topic in a different thread since this discussion is deterorating into a spat. I would like to know at any rate.
Hello; Tried a search and found an article.

http://advancedaquariumconcepts.com/how-to-cycle-an-aquarium/

Seems this author feels the bb are all around us in the air.
 

squint

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Low temperature reduces nitrification rates but that does not equate to the complete elimination of nitrifiers from drinking water systems. Inoculation of aquariums is still possible (actually very likely).

Occurrence of nitrifying bacteria and nitrification in Finnish drinking water distribution systems
We studied the occurrence and activity of nitrifying bacteria in 15 drinking water networks distributing water with very different origin and treatment practices. The waters included chloraminated surface water, chlorinated surface water, and non-disinfected groundwater. The networks were located in eight towns in different parts of Finland. Our results showed that nitrifying bacteria are common in boreal drinking water distribution systems despite their low temperature. Surprisingly high numbers and activities of nitrifiers were detected in pipeline sediment samples.
Here, a nitrification experiment simply used tap water to inoculate reactors with nitrifying bacteria. Noteworthy is the fact that they were also in a northern climate (much closer to Canada than Australia) and the disinfectant was chlorine. The use of chlorine rather than chloramine is much less favorable to the growth of nitrifiers yet they were still able to "cycle" their reactors with them.

Microbial ecology of nitrifying simulated premises plumbing
Nitrification in reactors with copper and polyvinyl chloride (PVC) surfaces was established by indigenous organisms from Bozeman tap water and has been stably maintained for more than 6 years
Dechlorinated Bozeman tap water (surface water source, no background ammonia, chlorinated) was treated biologically by passing through a granular activated carbon column followed by flow through a biologically active carbon (BAC) column and was provided as a separate, parallel influent. This served as the sole source of microorganisms, providing a continuous inoculum of indigenous organisms (104 CFU/mL of heterotrophic plate count (HPC)) to the reactors.
 
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benzjamin13

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Thanks RD. RD. I'm always impressed with your knowledge on the subject. I think most understand the Nitrogen Cycle, but the upkeep and understanding of how much Beneficial Bacteria is needed is still somewhat a mystery to most of us, including myself.

What's your opinion on the BB within the tank being "enough" if we do kill off all/most of the BB in our filter?
 

RD.

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This is such a complex topic that it is well beyond the scope of the average hobbyist, including myself for a lot of it.

My focus is generally on chloramine, as it seems to be what most areas in North America have switched to, or are in the process of switching to, and it tends to remain at near full strength while in the system. I believe that Duane once said that when tested after 1 week their sample was still at 100% full strength. The water treatment supervisor here told me in the past that a similar test showed the same, full strength after 2 weeks in a glass jar. Chloramine does not break down nearly as quickly as chlorine. How much and how fast that break down takes place will vary among distribution systems based on numerous factors.

Yes, nitrifying bacteria can be present in distribution systems, how much if any will again vary greatly dependent on numerous factors. Yes, nitrifying bacteria need ammonia to be present in order to thrive, in some distribution systems ammonia will be naturally present, in other systems ammonia will only become present via the decomposition of chloramine. (once the chlorine/ammonia bond has split) This is precisely why one of the most common ways to resolve nitrifying bacteria in a distribution system, is to increase the level of disinfectant. In some cases water utilities will form chloramines as a strategy to remove naturally occurring ammonia in the raw water supply, while others may use breakpoint chlorination.

Chloramine kills nitrifying bacteria. Chlorine kills nitrifying bacteria. Both are oxidizing agents that are not bacteria friendly, and not fish friendly. I think that we can all agree on that. These are not facts based on hobbyist hyperbole, but facts based in hard data supplied by scientists who specialize in this field. Many hobbyists have seen the results first hand, tanks that keep going into a mini cycle, and/or dead fish.


The only real questions left are how much, and how long? This is where disinfectant type, residual levels, and contact time all come into play.
Obviously someone like Dr. Tanner with such a low disinfectant residual doesn't have any issues, he could probably spray the water in while refilling his tanks and not even have an issue if he didn't use a water conditioner. At least in an established tank full of organics, and the volume of incoming water wasn't too great. Many people have stated that they do just that, and have for many years. For those folks, disinfectant becomes a non issue.

But that doesn't mean that someone on a different system, with disinfectant residuals several times higher (at the tap) could safely do the same thing. Again, residual disinfectant levels, contact time while cleaning, as well as how established ones bio-media is, will determine how safe tap water is to use, or not.

This type of discussion reminds me of many others posted here and elsewhere over the years, where hobbyists are asking how much water conditioner they should use (often Prime), and others will chime in stating 1 capful per 50 gallons, as somehow through internet magic they know the OP's water parameters, including their local water treatment plant disinfection levels, or the residual level at the OP's taps. One capful per 50 gallons, as everyone should know, is based on a specific amount of disinfectant residual. It amazes me that many hobbyists still do not understand that basic element in adding tap water to their tanks. Many under-dose, and I think that it's safe to say that many overdose. The reality of overdosing issues, causing 02 depletion, is why Seachem dumbed down their recommended dose 3 years ago.

And finally, there are systems that during part of the year use chloramine, and part of the year use chlorine, sometimes even different sources of water. And there are systems that are currently on chlorine, but are switching over to chloramine.

This topic has never been answered with a one size fits all.


And on that note, impossible to say with any real certainty, Ben. If the tank had enough decor (gravel, wood, skulls lol, etc) and the bio load itself wasn't too high, one might be ok. With a large bio load (fish/food) and a bare tank, the tank will most likely crash. Same result when certain meds are added to a tank, even an established tank. Been there, done that, and in my case it wasn't what I would consider a mini cycle. Some bio bacteria most likely survived the meds, but the majority were clearly wiped out. The problem with nitriying bacteria is at least from my understanding they don't multiply nearly as fast as we would like. Having some back up established media can sometimes be a real blessing.

http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

"Nitrifying bacteria reproduce by binary division. Under optimal conditions, Nitrosomonas may double every 7 hours and Nitrobacter every 13 hours. More realistically, they will double every 15-20 hours. This is an extremely long time considering that heterotrophic bacteria can double in as short a time as 20 minutes. In the time that it takes a single Nitrosomonas cell to double in population, a single E. Coli bacterium would have produced a population exceeding 35 trillion cells."
 
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