Whats the big deal about soft water cichlids in hard water. Rant

[samurai.cichlid]

A primary reason some discus keepers have to do fanatical water changes has more to do with bare, nearly sterile tanks (aside from filtration) and overfeeding protein than it does pH, since many of these same discus keepers have low pH, soft water.

i always thought sterility and acidity had a positive correlation i.e. the acid in the water inhibits bacteria. like how we use vinegar for cleaning with. so a higher ph has a higher capacity for carrying X or Y to make discus sick? higher ph, more garbage in the water, hence more water changes for fish like discus that can't handle that garbage in the water. but definitely with you on the X or Y in the water, the garbage, being the actual issue rather than the ph itself. if the water's clean, the discus seem to do alright.

i might be totally wrong. i'm dreadful when it comes to understanding what is really going on in fish tank water. i just tend to just parrot the people i perceive to be experts. and when i find myself out of my depth in a discussion (which is often) i then quickly and humbly recede back into my dark, damp, troglodytic den.

 

[neutrino]

What about hard water cichlids being kept in soft water?

I think it depends just how soft. Certainly, it's not hard to difficult hardness. A reason a fish can seem healthy short term in conditions far outside their normal but not live as long has to do with the energy expenditure it takes to maintain osmotic balance. Or they need a minimum of certain minerals biochemically, whether for growth, spawning, etc. Water can be clean and they're not showing signs of illness, but they simply die early, on that I agree with Duane. Or it might affect behavior, make them more skittish, for example.

On the other hand, I've seen exaggerations of what some fish require; for example, descriptions of the African lakes as "liquid concrete". And hardness alone doesn't tell you the actual mineral profile. For example, Lake Tanganyika is relatively high in magnesium, Lake Malawi fairly low in Magnesium. I've kept kapampa gibberosa for years. They're fine in pH in the mid or upper 7s and moderate (not high) hardness, same as the Malawi cichlids I used to keep and breed. But at least for my water, adding some magnesium to my kapampa tank seems to help them release eggs with fewer issues.

A lot of people who simply match hardness would be surprised how far off they are in actual mineral profile from the native water for their fish. Again, it's a good thing most fish are adaptable and forgiving-- within reason.

 

[neutrino]

i always thought sterility and acidity had a positive correlation i.e. the acid in the water inhibits bacteria. like how we use vinegar for cleaning with. so a higher ph has a higher capacity for carrying X or Y to make discus sick? higher ph, more garbage in the water, hence more water changes for fish like discus that can't handle that garbage in the water. but definitely with you on the X or Y in the water, the garbage, being the actual issue rather than the ph itself. if the water's clean, the discus seem to do alright.

i might be totally wrong. i'm dreadful when it comes to understanding what is really going on in fish tank water. i just tend to just parrot the people i perceive to be experts. and when i find myself out of my depth in a discussion (which is often) i then quickly and humbly recede back into my dark, damp, troglodytic den.

True, and as Duane said, tannins in native environments have antiseptic properties. By more 'sterile' I had in mind not pathogen load, but that a bare tank has less habitat for algae, various benign or beneficial bacteria, tiny food critters, etc. that grow in a tank with healthy substrate, driftwood, plants, etc, a more complete eco-system. It gets to be a question of approach and more than one approach can work. At the other end from bare tanks are dirt or 'dirty' tanks, where the idea is to more closely mimic natural environments, encourage a more complete eco-system, etc.

Lot of variables, but some tanks can be set up to need less water changes than others.

 

[neutrino]

I think it depends just how soft. Certainly, it's not hard to difficult hardness.

Sorry, correction to that somewhat nonsensical phrase: meant to say it's not difficult to add hardness.

 

[duanes]

What about hard water cichlids being kept in soft water?

One of my points, is that it is stress that creates conditions where disease organisms take advantage.
Putting a hard water fish fish in soft water is a major one of those stressors, along with high nitrate, the wrong tanks mates, and cramped conditions.
I believe all these things, or just some together, are why we see so many scarred up mature oscars turned in to LFSs, and so many disease riddled fish posts.
What some people consider excessive water changes, can circumvent some of these problems in soft water fish, and the same can be done by adding buffering substrate, or other factors for hard water fish.
Its probably easier to harden up water, than make it actually soft.
Of course the most effective way of avoiding these type problems, is by choosing the fish that fit your tap water as some have said above..
I've always wanted Uaru fernadezyepezi, but where I lived before, and where I live now, tol me its just not reasonable. They come from waters with a pH of 5 (sometimes Lower) very little hardness, and low alkalinity.
When I lived in Milwaukee my pH averaged 7.8, hardness was 250ppm (7 grains), and high alkalinity.
Here in Panama my pH wavers 8 to 8.4, with a similar hardness to Milwaukee, and so again, Amazonian soft water fish are not a realistic choice.
Some people might argue that since oscars have been commonly kept in aquariums since the 50s (I got my 1st oscar around 1960) it should have adapted to aquarium norms, (and I'm sure some have), but compare that 60 some years to the millions of years it took to evolve to its natural habitat.

 

[LBDave]

I have seen this many times,

”I put my severum, or oscar in my high pH, hard water when young, and it’s been fine, 3 months, or even a year later.”

But often, maybe 3 years or less later, a post comes up.

“My oscar, or severum has lots of HLLE scars, and I haven’t done anything different.”

There are a couple things to take into consideration, along with the hard water..

One is water change schedule, and because it may be the same now, as it was 3 years ago, that cute little 3” oscar is quadruple that size, and putting out quadruple the waste, but those 50% water changes might be still only once per week.

Results the fish is swimming in fish pee, and fish poop soup, and high nitrates (no matter how great the filtration).

When most people get their tap water, it is 99.999% pathogen free, and close to nitrate free.

As soon as it is dechlorinated, it becomes a great home for nasty bacteria, and the more your oscar pees and poops in the water, the better place it is, for those bacteria to grow, so even with a 50% water change there are 6 days for bacteria to double, triple or more. Many pathogens reproduce at alarming rates.



And here is where the hard water comes into play.



Species that live in soft, tannin filled waters, have evolved (on a cellular level) to live with different bacteria and protozoa, than live in hard water, and evolved to resist those soft water species of bacteria. And tannins themselves are anti bacteria in many cases.

When a soft water species, is put in hard water the osmotic pressure, allows hard water bacteria to invade on a cellular level, and cause chronic disease.



I have also heard it said ….

“But my friend raised thousands of discus in hard water”.



Many discus breeders change large amounts of water on a daily basis, sometimes up to 90%, per day, to get good growth.

This is where the 99.9999% pathogen free tap water comes into play.

When those massive water changes are done, beside growth inhibiting hormones, and nitrate, they also remove all those bacteria every day, or even every other day, so bacteria that cause diseases like Hold in the head are removed, and can’t get a foothold.

Most average aquarists don’t change 90% of the water in there oscar tank, once every week, much less every day.



To give an example of how osmotic pressure works.



When I treat a tank for ick, I add enough salt to bring the salinity (osmotic pressure) to 3ppt. That extra osmotic pressure is lethal to simple celled animals and lyses them.



Most fish are not acutely effected, or killed by that extra osmotic pressure, but it does put chronic low level stress on them, and allows (what would be) normally benign bacteria to enter soft water fish on a cellular level, causing chronic disease like HLLE.

Add an out of the norm osmotic pressure, to high nitrate, and the other stress factors of aquariums like cramped quarters or inappropriate tank mates, and it’s amazing we don’t see even more disease.

I have seen this many times,

”I put my severum, or oscar in my high pH, hard water when young, and it’s been fine, 3 months, or even a year later.”

But often, maybe 3 years or less later, a post comes up.

“My oscar, or severum has lots of HLLE scars, and I haven’t done anything different.”

There are a couple things to take into consideration, along with the hard water..

One is water change schedule, and because it may be the same now, as it was 3 years ago, that cute little 3” oscar is quadruple that size, and putting out quadruple the waste, but those 50% water changes might be still only once per week.

Results the fish is swimming in fish pee, and fish poop soup, and high nitrates (no matter how great the filtration).

When most people get their tap water, it is 99.999% pathogen free, and close to nitrate free.

As soon as it is dechlorinated, it becomes a great home for nasty bacteria, and the more your oscar pees and poops in the water, the better place it is, for those bacteria to grow, so even with a 50% water change there are 6 days for bacteria to double, triple or more. Many pathogens reproduce at alarming rates.



And here is where the hard water comes into play.



Species that live in soft, tannin filled waters, have evolved (on a cellular level) to live with different bacteria and protozoa, than live in hard water, and evolved to resist those soft water species of bacteria. And tannins themselves are anti bacteria in many cases.

When a soft water species, is put in hard water the osmotic pressure, allows hard water bacteria to invade on a cellular level, and cause chronic disease.



I have also heard it said ….

“But my friend raised thousands of discus in hard water”.



Many discus breeders change large amounts of water on a daily basis, sometimes up to 90%, per day, to get good growth.

This is where the 99.9999% pathogen free tap water comes into play.

When those massive water changes are done, beside growth inhibiting hormones, and nitrate, they also remove all those bacteria every day, or even every other day, so bacteria that cause diseases like Hold in the head are removed, and can’t get a foothold.

Most average aquarists don’t change 90% of the water in there oscar tank, once every week, much less every day.



To give an example of how osmotic pressure works.



When I treat a tank for ick, I add enough salt to bring the salinity (osmotic pressure) to 3ppt. That extra osmotic pressure is lethal to simple celled animals and lyses them.



Most fish are not acutely effected, or killed by that extra osmotic pressure, but it does put chronic low level stress on them, and allows (what would be) normally benign bacteria to enter soft water fish on a cellular level, causing chronic disease like HLLE.

Add an out of the norm osmotic pressure, to high nitrate, and the other stress factors of aquariums like cramped quarters or inappropriate tank mates, and it’s amazing we don’t see even more disease.

One of my points, is that it is stress that creates conditions where disease organisms take advantage.
Putting a hard water fish fish in soft water is a major one of those stressors, along with high nitrate, the wrong tanks mates, and cramped conditions.
I believe all these things, or just some together, are why we see so many scarred up mature oscars turned in to LFSs, and so many disease riddled fish posts.
What some people consider excessive water changes, can circumvent some of these problems in soft water fish, and the same can be done by adding buffering substrate, or other factors for hard water fish.
Its probably easier to harden up water, than make it actually soft.
Of course the most effective way of avoiding these type problems, is by choosing the fish that fit your tap water as some have said above..
I've always wanted Uaru fernadezyepezi, but where I lived before, and where I live now, tell me its just not reasonable. They come from waters with a pH of 5 (sometimes Lower) very little hardness, and low alkalinity.
When I lived in Milwaukee my pH averaged 7.8, hardness was 250ppm (7 grains), and high alkalinity.
Here in Panama my pH wavers 8 to 8.4, with a similar hardness to Milwaukee, and so again, Amazonian soft water fish are not a realistic choice.
Some people might argue that since oscars have been commonly kept in aquariums since the 50s (I got my 1st oscar around 1960) it should have adapted to aquarium norms, (and I'm sure some have), but compare that 60 some years to the millions of years it took to evolve to its natural habitat.

Agree totally. My tap water appears to have risen in ph if you believe my seneye device. Have purchased a tester to check this out. I have osacrs and geos. I'm not in the 8 range but I am trying to get a handle on this. Thanks for your post.

 

[duanes]

While I'm ranting like Walter Sobchak, I'd also like to comment on the idea most Central America cichlids should be fed fish meat, like Tilapia fillets, or feeders.
This is far from the case.
There "are" a few piscvore type Central American species, like some Parachromis, and Petenia, but in reality most Central American Cichlids are omnivorous, and some mainly vegetarian.
Most Vieja are highly vegetarian, and have been seen eating fallen fruit, both Cincelichthys are predominantly vegetarian as adults, most other Centrl American cichlids are omnivores, eating equal amounts of insects, mollusks, algae, detritus and what ever they find.
Even adult dovii are found to be mainly insectivores.
A management plan for the sport fishery of Parachromis dovii (Pisces ...www.scielo.sa.cr/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0034-77442000000200019
My point again is that feeding out of the norm for certain fish, can be a stress factor, and lead to disease.
Cincelichthys have longer than normal digestive tracts, that allow them to make use of terrestrial foliage, and if forced to eat too much animal/fish based food end up with digestive problems.

 

[TheFishDodo]

While I'm ranting like Walter Sobchak, I'd also like to comment on the idea most Central America cichlids should be fed fish meat, like Tilapia fillets, or feeders.
This is far from the case.
There "are" a few piscvore type Central American species, like some Parachromis, and Petenia, but in reality most Central American Cichlids are omnivorous, and some mainly vegetarian.
Most Vieja are highly vegetarian, and have been seen eating fallen fruit, both Cincelichthys are predominantly vegetarian as adults, most other Centrl American cichlids are omnivores, eating equal amounts of insects, mollusks, algae, detritus and what ever they find.
Even adult dovii are found to be mainly insectivores.
A management plan for the sport fishery of Parachromis dovii (Pisces ...www.scielo.sa.cr/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0034-77442000000200019
My point again is that feeding out of the norm for certain fish, can be a stress factor, and lead to disease.
Cincelichthys have longer than normal digestive tracts, that allow them to make use of terrestrial foliage, and if forced to eat too much animal/fish based food end up with digestive problems.

I feel this is the same with a lot of South American cichlids espically Green Terrors and Discus. I have seen many people rave about how much their fish likes Northfin or how it gives them great color but these same people also seem to post questions like why is my Green Terror Bloating or having white poo. Green Terrors are primarily vegetarian with some insects also in their diet. But one look at the ingredients in Northfin will reveal why their GT is bloating. Northfin cichlid formula has a min crude protein of 40% this might not be a problem if it was plant based protein but their top 5 ingredients as quoted off of Amazon are Whole Antarctic Krill Meal, High Omega-3 (DHA) Herring Meal, Whole Sardine Meal, Wheat Flour, Kelp. This might be good for a wolf fish but not for many cichlids. Hell even their vegie formula just has kelp as the #1 ingredient with the rest of the list the same. Also many people believe that GT's are soft water fish when the come from west of the andes where the water is harder. Maybe if people kept GT's in higher ph waters not so many would get internal parasites.

About discus why would someone ever feed a fish land based protein like beefheart. The reason so many people think discus are so sensetive is because they feed them beefheart which their digestive tracks are not set up for causing much of the protein in the food to go to waste.

 

[aae0130]

Natural to what.....the heritage or the tank it came from?

 

[neutrino]

Some people might argue that since oscars have been commonly kept in aquariums since the 50s (I got my 1st oscar around 1960)

What size tank, which species (if you know) and how aggressive was it? Tankmates?