Whats the big deal about soft water cichlids in hard water. Rant

[Coryloach]

The same study points out that all cases were triggered by prior issue with water quality...but resuming water quality, although alleviating the problem, would not cure the disease outbreak...As usual prevention is the best cure..

As per the above I posted, yes, prevention is the best method of avoiding fish diseases but once you've spun the ball in the wrong direction, more drastic measures are required to fix the situation.

From the studies I've read recently, it is always a mixture of pathogens involved and never just one. A parasite is always the major player accompanied by either bacteria, fungus or/and other parasites/worms. Bacteria is almost always secondary. When the fish's immune system is weakened, it seems it just gets attacked big time by what would not normally affect a healthy fish.

In this study below on discus, the pathogens involved were bacteria: A Hydrophila, fungus: Fusarium sp. and at 80% flagellates: Spironucleus Vortens.

Note the clinical signs:
Naturally infected Symphysodon spp showed ulceration on the skin especiallyon the head and dorsal fins. Fish suffered from exophthalmia, eye cloudiness,congested gills abdominal distention,excessive body mucus, frayed dorsal fin and tail rot

They divided the fish in 6 groups. The group treated with metro at 5ppm with 50% daily water changes for 3 days, fully recovered post treatment.

The other group of fish that made full recovery was those in which the tank was maintained at 30C temperature, no chemical treatment involved....

In both groups spironeucleus was not detected 2 weeks post treatment.

The fish in the control groups all died.

https://www.academia.edu/8813717/Ca...cus_fish_Symphysodon_and_trials_for_treatment

Apart from the above mentioned, from other studies I've come across on spironucleus vortens:

Metronidazole at 6.6 mg/litre for 5 days

Temperature maintained at 31C for 4 days

Magnesium sulfate in feed as per RD. extensive thread on the matter and scientific studies.

Anecdotal in discus treatment, 500 mg metronidazole per 10G of water for 10 days. (double the study recommended dose)

Anecdotal in discus treatment, 33-36C maintained for 4-5 days. (obviously way higher temps recommended than the studies...)

I think that some parasites can be eradicated while still not blown full force and if I bought a cichlid, my first action would be prevention in the form of treatment. Looking at these studies, cranking the temperature up is enough...providing you have fish that can handle it...

Although in studies it is mentioned that parasites are naturally occurring in nature, the presence of these parasites in the fish in aquarium conditions can cause an outbreak and death, or at least chronic issues, interfere with growth and nutrition, etc..

Personally I think that it may be no harm to apply a preventative treatment for flagellates, specifically in cichlids, along with subsequent de-worming for nematodes and cestodes, providing that according to literature one can actually completely eliminate these in the early stages. In small amounts the fish may not show clinical signs, providing good water conditions, but it's a bomb waiting to explode..

 

[RD.]

There is a plethora of information posted on MFK regarding S. vortens, I know, because I have posted most of it over the years, including one discussion that was later made a sticky. Using heat alone has one major drawback, S. vortens lives in the posterior intestine, and in advanced cases once systemic it could be almost everywhere, including organs, including blood, and including tissue, long before it surfaces as HITH. Increased water temps will have zero impact, outside of those parasites that survive the passing in feces, heat won't eradicate this parasite in a fish that is already infected.

And while I agree, it is always possible for one to misdiagnose an illness, or pathogen, such as Cryptobia iubilans and Spironucleus Vortens, as previously stated I have not come across any literature that suggests that C. iulbilans is associated with HITH.

IMO the best preventative measure is what Duane describe. Treatment may depend on how serious the issue already is, I have personally had good success feeding NLS Hex-Shield to fish that came from a LFS already carrying a payload of what I believed to be S. vortens, with the stress of netting and relocation to a new environment pushing them over the top. So far, the combination of metronidazole, magnesium sulfate, and a mega dose of garlic found in Hex-Shield cleaned them up enough to at the very least allow the fish to regain their strength, and like fish in the wild live in harmony with the parasite.

0 stress = 0 health issues (for the most part). At least that has been my experience over the years.

 

[Coryloach]

Increased water temps will have zero impact, outside of those parasites that survive the passing in feces, heat won't eradicate this parasite in a fish that is already infected.

Not in the studies I read. Fish had the parasite in liver, kidney, spleen...Temperature treatment was effective according to the study. As far as I know, it is not curable when it goes into the blood stream but I read that long ago.

As a matter of fact, outside the gut many parasites/worms are unreachable with medication, hence I suggest preventative treatment before the parasites invade other organs.

I get the idea about water quality. It's always been my main focus ever but there are things that good water quality alone can't remedy. When I had fish with hex, a simple move from one tank to another would trigger it. You can't always swim against the current.

 

[Coryloach]

0 stress = 0 health issues (for the most part). At least that has been my experience over the years.

Yes, but you do treat with anti - flagellate meds like hex shield?

So do I plus a de-wormer and when followed by good water quality fish just go on living without any random deaths or odd disease outbreaks.

Parasites and worms are stressors and triggers of more serious levels of disease. If they're in the gut, they aren't something the fish will cure by good immune system. The good immune system and good water conditions can keep it under control but not eradicate it.

If we are talking about bacterial diseases, then I completely agree water quality is probably the major trigger....but not parasites, in a sense that they are triggers of more serious situations by themselves.

 

[Coryloach]

Just a bit more from the the study on Cryptobia I quoted earlier:

Research with a population of wild-caught cichlids held in isolation demonstrated that C iubilans may be apart of the normal fauna of these fish, becoming more pathogenic only under certain conditions.

a Wet-mount preparations of stomach tissues from recently import-ed wild-caught P zebra contained fewer, smaller granu-lomas, and these were found in only 2 of 9 fish necrop-sied. However, after the fish were held in isolation for several months, those that remained (5/5) had gastric granulomas that were much larger and in greater over-all number in each fish, and examination of gastric tis-sue by means of transmission electron microscopy revealed C iubilans in these granulomas.a

Some researchers consider C iubilans to be a facultative para-site,12 and the 4 production facilities discussed in the present report all had additional factors (eg, water-quality problems and external or other internal para-sites) that likely contributed to the illness and death of the fish.Granulomatous gastritis has been associated with gastrointestinal cryptobiosis in a number of cichlidspecies, including

Astronotus ocellatus,Aulonocara jacobfriebergi,
Aulonocara stuartgranti, Cichlasoma(Herichthys)meekiCichlasoma nigrofasciatum,Cichlasoma octofasciatum,Cyphotilapia frontosa,Dimidiochromis compressiceps,Haplochromis milomo(VC-10),Cichlasoma (Herichthys) cyanoguttatum, Cichlasoma(Herichthys) nicaraguense, Cichlasoma (Herichthys) syn-spilum,Oreochromis esculentis,Pseudotropheus zebra, and Symphysodon spp.
2,4,12,b-d

Interestingly, we have not seen similar disease signs in angelfish (
Pterophyllum scalare),another blackwater cichlid of South American origin,even though angelfish develop many other diseases com-monly seen in discus. In fact, we have only rarely seen any flagellates in the stomach of this species.

It is likely that many cases of granulomatous gas-tritis and gastroenteritis in cichlids caused byC iubi-lans have been misdiagnosed because live parasites were not seen. Although the epidemiology of the dis-ease has not been determined, our field observations of active cases of the disease suggest that the rapid time course of acute infection in susceptible populations or the slow spread with chronic infections may account for the low prevalence of active infections. Differences in morbidity and mortality rates have been seen among different species, as well as among different age classes of the same species.

It is also possible that the clinical importance of Ciubilans infestations in cichlids has been overlooked because of infestations with other distantly related,enteric protozoal parasites. Flagellates commonly found in the intestinal tract of many cichlid species,including discus, that may be confused with C iubilans
are members of the order Diplomonadida, family Hexamitidae. These flagellates are known as hexami-tids and include Spironucleus spp and Hexamita spp. 13
Spironucleus vortens has been isolated from the intesti-nal tract of angelfish,14
and S vortens or a closely relat-ed species is commonly found in numerous wild-caught and captive-bred cichlids.
14

 

[Coryloach]

I am not arguing that HITH is caused by cryptobia. I am suggesting that a very sick fish not responding to metro maybe infected by more than one flagellate, and other parasites/bacteria. If the symptoms look like hex, chances are there is cryptobia involved and could be the chronic stressor and the killer if outbreak is gone out of control.

In Europe, dimetridazole is available under the name Waterlife Octozin.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Waterlife-Octozin-80-Tab/dp/B003ZGCJN2

 

[RD.]

Yes, there is always the possibility. There is also the possibility that once S. vortens has become systemic, and organs are damaged, that metronidazole will have no impact, and the fish will die.

 

[Coryloach]

I agree. It is hard to know and treating fish is a big guess that doesn't always yield results but the evidence for cryptobia in cichlids is overwhelming enough to be ignored.

 

[Coryloach]

Years ago when I had what I believed a hexamita outbreak in livebeares, I followed the general advise and got myself metronidazole. I've mentioned it before in old threads, metronidazole did nothing in my case, fish kept dying, emaciated, stringy poop.

I got JBL spirohexol which halted the mass deaths from the first dose. At the time I was not aware of dimetridazole but I was only researching hexamita/sprionucleus.

It's been bugging me since why metro did not work where JBL spirohexol worked. I ruled it out to resistance to the flagellates to metro.

In the study I posted, Aminonitrothiazole, the active ingredient in JBL spirohexol, has also been found effective against cryptobia, apart from dimetridazole.

So there's my answer that's been bugging me for 10 years.

 

[RD.]

I agree. It is hard to know and treating fish is a big guess that doesn't always yield results but the evidence for cryptobia in cichlids is overwhelming enough to be ignored.

No one is suggesting that anything should be ignored. But again, I have not come across any literature that suggests that C. iulbilans is associated with HITH. We are discussing HITH, as in fish with "holes in their head". I have seen fish with what I was certain (at least in my mind) had C. iulbilans, and their symptoms were not confusing, at least to me, with S. vortens. They stopped eating (first sign) became dark (second sign) , and gasped at the surface (final stages), as though struggling to get oxygen. Those are not typical clinical signs of S. vortens, or HITH.

Again, from what I have seen over the years most fish with HITH symptoms will still actively eat, on the other hand fish suffering from an infestation of C. iubilans will go off of their feed, suffer from what appears to be 02 depletion, and waste away. http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/vm077

No mention of open pits or holes in the heads of fish with late stages of C. iubilans in any of the papers that I have read, I agree though, without a microscope and knowing exactly what to look for one disease can often be confused with another. Also, in early stages it is easy for a layperson to misdiagnose an illness, which by what you describe is what happened to you with your livebearers. Been there, done that, too.






The problem with an illness such as HITH, is that for one it isn't an illness, or a disease. It's a symptom, a single symptom of an illness, that could be caused from numerous conditions. This is precisely why HITH has been so misunderstood over the years.

As an example …..

In the following video a DVM discusses a single severe case where a combination of gill flukes, poor water conditions, possibly a poor diet (he didn't go into that much) and a multitude of bacteria, created a perfect storm for HITH. No S. vortens present, and no C. iubilans. The stress from gill flukes, coupled with poor water quality (high bacteria load) caused this case of HITH. At least this was the initial diagnosis.....

part 2 - after a poor initial response in 3 of the fish, further testing discovered that 3 of the fish in the vid above, had fish TB and were later euthanized as they did not respond to treatment. The 4th fish responded, healed, and survived the ordeal.

This Oscar in following vid with HITH was treated with metronidazole, a lowering of pH, and an increase in food quantity. Oddly enough this fish was being underfed, instead of the more common overfeeding that many do. Again, no C. iubilans present, and Metronidazole was effective for a cure, which in most cases it is.

And of course, we have all seen numerous fish respond to nothing more than clean water, which is why many hobbyists still believe that's all one needs to beat a case of HITH. In many cases yes, but certainly not all.

HTH