Whats the big deal about soft water cichlids in hard water. Rant

Coryloach

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why most of us are still somewhere on the learning curve, even if we're pretty experienced.
I am always on a learning curve, lol. I don't think I ever stopped seeking more information about fish. It's just that in time I have established certain interests in relation to fish, keeping on which I spent more time than the others.

Let's assume that Hole in the head and lateral erosion is caused by nutrient deficiencies, then you can connect all dots: carbon in the filter, poor quality diet, flagellates robbing fish of nutrients and it's causes: flagellate outbreak due to a period of starvation, water quality issues triggering increased parasitic load due to bad water quality, increased parasitic load due to other type of stress depressing the immune system such as overcrowding, aggressive tank mates, tank move stressing the fish's immune system, old fish with decreased immune system not being able to cope with the flagellates..

Then the anecdotal experiences make sense, including those that claim a diet of earthworms will fix it and a diet of new life spectrum will also fix it along with improving the water quality...

That's my take on it, at the moment, ha,ha. We'll see what tomorrow brings :grinyes:
 

neutrino

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I am always on a learning curve, lol. I don't think I ever stopped seeking more information about fish. It's just that in time I have established certain interests in relation to fish, keeping on which I spent more time than the others.
Same here, I've spent more time on some areas than others. :)

I haven't done a lot of research on HITH, seen a lot of discussion, read some of the links people post, and still don't know how much I know about it. I've seen different theories, some that make less sense to me than others. For example, carbon. I haven't used it for years, but I used carbon religiously for 20 years without a single case of HITH, including discus tanks, so I don't get the connection. Yet I've seen people say they removed their carbon and it solved their problem-- I don't get it, I've done a good bit of reading on carbon in the past and found nothing to persuade me it causes HITH.

I've seen different remedies work for different people, which makes me suspect there may be different pathways to causing the same issue. I've seen one theory that does make sense to me, having to do with mineral balance and mineral absorption, which can have different causes, including pathogens (and some meds-- which makes me question the regular "preventative" medicating some people do), absorbing minerals/nutrients the fish needs, but I can't say whether it's the complete or only answer. I once pointed someone to information about mineral balance in water who had tried Metro, other meds, different foods, and practically everything else without success. He ended up curing the problem by adding minerals to his water, simple as that-- after everything he went through. I don't agree with everything the source below says, about food, for example, but... (emphasis is the author's)

link
Magnesium and calcium have been shown to increase resistance to degenerate diseases by lowering the acidity in the body.
This will help with prevention of ich, fungus, and general “wear and tear” in your fish.
Calcium also helps in healing and stress, and without proper calcium levels healing may be difficult or impossible.

Calcium is also important and has been shown to both prevent and at least in part treat 'Hole in the Head' disease common to cichlids (also referred to as HITH).
It is noteworthy that the addition of antibiotics (such as Tetracycline) will lower calcium absorption, while the presence of correct amounts of calcium in the aquarium water will considerably reduce the toxic side effects of Malachite Green which is why a GH (for freshwater calcium measurement) of at least 100 ppm or higher is SO VERY important to Ich treatment.
link
Back to Hexamita flagellates
, these protozoans main effect as to causing HITH appears to me more indirect as this flagellate protozoan absorbs many of the nutrients in the digestive tract needed by the fish, in particular Thiamine and calcium.
So removal of these parasites with Metronidazole is certainly a worth while aspect of treatment (their presence which can be confirmed by microscopic slides), however this again is just half the problem as correcting nutrient problems is as important or possibly more important.
 
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RD.

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The carbon link was first posted on various forums due to a paper/study done years ago at the public aquarium in Chicago, in marine systems, not freshwater. There is no scientific proof that carbon causes HITH in freshwater fish. At least that I am aware of.

Like most illness in fish, HITH is triggered by stress, and is most certainly not just caused by nutrient deficiencies, or poor water quality. I have seen freshwater fish swimming in pristine water, and eating what I can only describe as a very high quality diet (including NLS pellets daily) come down with HITH. If the flagellates are present in the system (S. vortens) , and they often are as these are a very common parasite in tropical fish, then when any form of stress surfaces those flagellates can multiply and take hold.

From a previous post of mine......

Over the years numerous things have been blamed as the cause of Hole in the Head disease in fish. While this is still a confusing subject among hobbyists one thing has become clear, the pathogen responsible for the ulcerated pits in the head and body of ornamental freshwater fish with this condition, is Spironucleus spp., in ornamental warm water fish, the culprit is typically Spironucleus vortens.


Water quality can often be a stress trigger among many species of fish, with excessive stress creating a lowered immune response which in turn opens the door for protozoa to proliferate to excessive numbers. No matter the stress trigger in each individual case, it is always some form of stress that triggers a case of HITH. Poor water quality, poor diet, stress from aggressive tank mates, overcrowding, etc, can all lead to an outbreak of S. vortens flagellates. With any type of illness, be it bacterial, viral, or parasitic, pristine water quality will help ensure a heightened immune response by the fish.


From the following paper;

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-120399-140825/unrestricted/ANGEL.PDF




"In freshwater fish, Spironucleus sp. has been reported in cichlids, including angelfish, and cyprinids. Spironucleus elegans has been found causing disease in angelfish (Pterophyllum scalare) in Europe (Kulda and Lom, 1964b), while Spironucleus vortens has been also reported from the intestinal lumen of angelfish bred in Florida (Poynton et al., 1995). They can be found in the intestinal tracts of healthy fish and they may invade the body of the host and are capable of causing severe parasitemia under stress conditions (Molnár, 1974).

Hexamita are considered commensal organisms but can be pathogenic under various stressful conditions such as nutritional inadequacies, suboptimal water quality, crowding, poor sanitation and infections from other pathogens or parasites (Specht et al., 1989; Uzmann et al., 1965)

Although Hexamita and Spironucleus cause disease in several economically important fish species in many regions of the world, their pathogenicity is not well known (Woo and Poynton, 1995). It has been believed that the effects and the severity of diplomonad infection are dependent on fish size, tissue site infested, environmental conditions, stocking density, season and stress factors (Allison, 1963; Buchmann and Uldal, 1996; Mo et al., 1990; Uldal and Buchmann, 1996). Fish infected with Hexamita salmonis exhibited clinical signs correlated to their body length and weight (Uldal and Buchmann, 1996). This supports the study of Allison (1963) that large trout, more than 3 or 4 inches long, showed a smaller effect from Hexamita infection than smaller trout.

It is believed that the organisms invade the intestinal epithelium and disseminate to other tissues when the host’s resistance has been suppressed (Woo and Poynton, 1995). It has been suggested that only Spironucleus spp. cause systemic infection because they can invade intestinal mucosa and disseminate to other tissues (Siddall et al., 1992). Evidence of systemic spironucleosis was reported in cyprinids and aquarium fishes (Molnár, 1974), and in salmonids (Mo et al., 1990; Poppe et al., 1992; Sterud et al., 1997). In cyprinids, many Spironucleus sp. were found in the gut where they caused reddening of the mucous membrane, brownish-gray discoloration and necrosis of liver, and haemorrhagic enteritis. In aquarium fishes, the parasite has been reported to cause losses in angelfish stock of up to 50% of the population. The infected fishes showed reddening of the skin, and haemorrhages and ulcerations in the region of the head (Molnár, 1974). The parasites were found in the gut, gallbladder and visceral organs. Spironucleus sp. were also found in large numbers in the blood and the muscle of infected fish."

And as previously posted, in some cases it can boil down to being a bacterial infection, caused by other stressors. This is what has caused so much confusion with hobbyists around the world, different scenarios, different conditions, and even different species, in some cases exposed to a multitude of stressors - but all leading to the same end result - holes/pitting in the head region of the fish. So in the case of HITH, probably best not to assume anything, start small, and work your way up the ladder of treatments currently available, including meds that are locally available.
 

RD.

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BTW - I have seen HITH present in fish kept in water that is rock hard, and calcium rich.
 
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Coryloach

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In the videos you posted RD. , where spironucleus was not found but mycobacterium, is there any further information how was that determined, as in the study I read, it suggested the granulomas of cryptobia may happen to be confused with mycobacterium in studies they did not do an acid based test to rule out bacteria. Up until then only mycobacterium was known to cause granulomas. It is just something that caught my attention and I saw a couple of youtube videos where the granulomas in the fish affected wtith HITH were contributed to mycobacterium. I am only speculating here but it would be interesting if they do state how the mycobacterium was determined as the cause.

I actually found one reference to cryptobia and HITH. I am not willing to post it now as it refers to an old book the info in which is not available online. The reference said in some cases, cryptobia can cause hole in the head....

I am not trying to cause another argument. I am just not satisfied with the info available to me right now.
 

Coryloach

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To add some color to the thread, lol.

A platy that in my case made full recovery.
It took about 3-4 months from the first picture where the fish was emaciated(me being lazy) and the 2nd photo below. She never grew as large as it's siblings, like the one next to it, but she lived.

Edit: I forgot to say that this was triggered by me moving the platies from one tank to another...

HexamitaPlaty1.jpg

HexamitaPlaty2.jpg
 
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RD.

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In the videos you posted RD. , where spironucleus was not found but mycobacterium, is there any further information how was that determined
You would have to contact the DVM that narrated those videos, and ask him.



BTW - Earlier when I mentioned carbon, and the Chicago public aquarium, it was actually Jay Hemdal, the curator of fishes at the Toledo Zoo that wrote the paper on carbon, and the association with HLLE in marine fish. I posted a link to an article here on MFK several years ago, but the link has since gone dead. These should work. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15222055.2011.635781

and/or https://afspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15222055.2011.635781

The Role of Activated Lignite Carbon in the Development of Head and Lateral Line Erosion in the Ocean Surgeon

Jay Hemdal

R. Andrew Odum

First published: 16 November 2011

Abstract

Head and lateral line erosion (HLLE) is an acute or chronic, often progressive problem affecting captive fishes. Its etiology is enigmatic. This study examined the relationship between the use of activated carbon as a filtrant and the development of HLLE lesions in ocean surgeons Acanthurus bahianus. Three identical, 454‐L marine aquarium systems were established. Thirty‐five ocean surgeons were distributed among the three aquarium systems. Activated lignite carbon was added to one system, and pelleted carbon was added to the second system. The fish in the third system were not exposed to any carbon. All 12 fish that were exposed to lignite carbon developed severe HLLE within 3 months. The 12 fish that were exposed to pelleted carbon did not develop gross symptoms, but microscopic lesions were discovered upon histological examination. The 11 control fish did not develop any visible or microscopic lesions. Based on these results, the use of activated lignite carbon in marine aquariums that house HLLE‐susceptible species is discouraged.
Publication cover image
Volume73, Issue4

October 2011
Pages 489-492



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    Details

    © 2011 American Fisheries Society



    Funding Information
    • Toledo Zoo Foundation
    • Toledo Zoological Society

    Publication History
    • Issue Online: 16 November 2011
    • Version of Record online: 16 November 2011
    • Manuscript accepted:
 

neutrino

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With any type of illness, be it bacterial, viral, or parasitic, pristine water quality will help ensure a heightened immune response by the fish.
That's one of the points Strohmeyer makes. Obviously, the inverse can also be true.

Hexamita are considered commensal organisms but can be pathogenic under various stressful conditions such as nutritional inadequacies, suboptimal water quality, crowding, poor sanitation and infections from other pathogens or parasites (Specht et al., 1989; Uzmann et al., 1965)
As you say, there are multiple possible stressors. However, the presence of stressors can be distinguished from a stress response. I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying about pathogens, I think we're just focused on different factors-- I'm looking at other contributing factors-- and potentially why I've never had but one mild case of HITH in several decades of fishkeeping. I've certainly had individually stressed fish on occasion. I've had my share of aggression issues, and while I prefer to stock lightly to moderately now, I certainly have some crowded tanks in my history. I've had a few chemistry issues over the years, whether due to my own mistakes or issues with water from the tap, but just one mild case of HITH ever. I'm not saying that proves anything, but there must be reasons for it.

I can write in some depth about single photon interference, the conundrum of why gravity is weaker than the other fundamental forces, or some of the problems with string theory (here's a "simple" one: string theory is background dependent, but spacetime is dynamic, not static, so string theories require a universe we don't live in to work, a string theory that describes reality would have to be background independent), yet, as many times as I've read about the subject, I don't understand redox well enough to actually explain it :) I'm just not very bright in that area. What I do understand, dimly as it might be, is it involves mineral and chemical balance , that in an aquarium it represents a potential to balance electron exchange in water chemistry and bio chemistry, and that it affects fish immune response and healing response. I assume this is why improving mineral balance in his tank healed HITH pit erosion after nothing else worked in the case I mentioned above. I'm not arguing the role of pathogens, just looking at other factors, whether in HITH or disease resistance in general.

Redox regulation of the immune response
Reactive oxygen and nitrogen species (ROS-RNS) and other redox active molecules fulfill key functions in immunity. Beside the initiation of cytocidal reactions within the pathogen defense strategy, redox reactions trigger and shape the immune response and are further involved in termination and initialization of cellular restorative processes.

Furthermore, T cell activation and proliferation are strongly dependent on the redox potential of the extracellular microenvironment.
 
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RD.

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Just for the record, the only cases of HITH that I have had in any of my tanks, surfaced in a few fish shortly after they were purchased. It's not something that I have personally had to deal with more than a few times, over many years of fish keeping.
 

Coryloach

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It is not necessary for actual HITH to develop in fish infested with flagellates. They may die of "uknown causes/mystery deaths" and you may have never known the actual issue unless you sent off fish for testing each time. HITH from what I gather is an advanced stage of the disease and probably more resilient fish only last long enough to actually get the HITH, if spironucleus vortens related. Fish with flagellates are more likely to die from secondary bacterial infections long before the parasite gets a chance at it. But the parasite is the root cause and stressor, weakening the immune system slowly but surely. In cryptobia the granulomas are a magnet for bacterial infections for example, even before you see any other visual symptoms. Small fish die way faster from flagellates/worms than large fish so more common to have a tank outbreak in a tank with small fish.

Also, some fish are not susceptible to it, have anti-bodies, even among the same species of fish. They're are considered carriers as they can still infect other fish. Hence a low level flagellate infection ends up with the odd dead fish, perhaps with totally different visual symptoms as it may not be the parasite that killed them. Full blown tank infections are rare, due to more severe additional stress.

In fairness, I think a lot of flagellate infections go unnoticed and the death is contributed to something else. In fish farming protozoa are the biggest evil and even increasingly so being acknowledged as such. Fish almost always come with flagellates and little attention is paid in fish shops or farms for the aquarium trade, as the fish may only show the symptoms many months after you got it. They know it's hard to pin point it to the supplier/fish shop. Why waste the resources?

Take the discus hobby for example, fish riddled with flagellates, even if you get from the best breeders. They only benefit of the latter is that you get fish with stronger immune systems that can fight it off for a while. But early or later the flagellates may show up their dirty nose, perhaps many months later when the customer is blamed for it...

Spironucleus vortens theoretically can be completely eradicated from a breeder's tank...if proper care is taken with starting with fish that don't carry it and subsequent bio security....But no one cares, as you can't pin point to where it came from....it will be definitely blamed on bad water quality when it happens. I mean, is there anyone that has kept fish for a considerable length of time that has not have to use metronidazole at least once?
 
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