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MultipleTankSyndrome
Have you seen this on loaches.com? https://www.loaches.com/articles/river-tank-manifold-design
Have you seen this on loaches.com? https://www.loaches.com/articles/river-tank-manifold-design
Setting up my second loach tank.
- Thread starter MultipleTankSyndrome
- Start date
Thanks for commenting celebrist and TwoTankAmin. I have seen and read about the manifold a number of times, and it did seem like the way to go at first.
The only problem with it is the need for a powerhead to be attached to the end of the tank above water (whereas submersible pumps like Sicce don't have that problem, but can't be attached to the manifold). There is no space to hook the powerhead to either end of the tank above water because of the size and need for lids.
It would, however, be an excellent choice if there wasn't the problem of the powerheads needing to go on the ends.
The only problem with it is the need for a powerhead to be attached to the end of the tank above water (whereas submersible pumps like Sicce don't have that problem, but can't be attached to the manifold). There is no space to hook the powerhead to either end of the tank above water because of the size and need for lids.
It would, however, be an excellent choice if there wasn't the problem of the powerheads needing to go on the ends.
The powerheads don’t go above the water. The pipe work goes under the gravel, the intake at one end of the tank with foam on and the powerhead half way up or nearer the top at the other end depending how high you want max flow. The difference being the powerheads shoot straight jets of water whereas the Xstream blows swirling water around. Very much like
cockroach
design but with the manifold instead of waiting for the water to make its way back along the front wall of the tank, you remove it at the far end, suck it through the pipes and blow it back out on the right.
The manifold idea just creates more one direction flow, although many stream fish live in the eddies off of a main stream most of the time so are quite happy with current that goes round in the tank ( unless you are really looking at fast water suckers)
cockroach
design but with the manifold instead of waiting for the water to make its way back along the front wall of the tank, you remove it at the far end, suck it through the pipes and blow it back out on the right. The manifold idea just creates more one direction flow, although many stream fish live in the eddies off of a main stream most of the time so are quite happy with current that goes round in the tank ( unless you are really looking at fast water suckers)
M
MultipleTankSyndrome
Thinking about a good setup for a loach tank, and not discounting any advice from
cockroach
.
When I look at the natural environment for botia, usually lowland rivers and canals, there is usually some broad but overall slow movement of the waterway with large areas of still water, and the occasional and variable track of extremely fast water.
I am not sure that a loach tank needs a uniform movement of water. Maybe the opposite.
As an example, one of my tanks, quit small, that I am using as a temporary holding tank for dats and L numbers also has twenty nine modesta. The tank has a wet and dry across one end with an eheim 1000 lph pump, and I feed an oxygen pump into the return. But the return is close to the overflow, so there is no great circulation in the tank. I have fed the return into an upturned flower pot. So pretty much the entire 1000 lph empties from the upended bottom of the flower pot - pictures below.
The loaches love it. That small hole is their own private access to the flower pot, where they stay most of the day. And only they dare go in and out. They can also stick their heads out of the hole, and stay still in the fast flow while surveying the scene.
cockroach
.When I look at the natural environment for botia, usually lowland rivers and canals, there is usually some broad but overall slow movement of the waterway with large areas of still water, and the occasional and variable track of extremely fast water.
I am not sure that a loach tank needs a uniform movement of water. Maybe the opposite.
As an example, one of my tanks, quit small, that I am using as a temporary holding tank for dats and L numbers also has twenty nine modesta. The tank has a wet and dry across one end with an eheim 1000 lph pump, and I feed an oxygen pump into the return. But the return is close to the overflow, so there is no great circulation in the tank. I have fed the return into an upturned flower pot. So pretty much the entire 1000 lph empties from the upended bottom of the flower pot - pictures below.
The loaches love it. That small hole is their own private access to the flower pot, where they stay most of the day. And only they dare go in and out. They can also stick their heads out of the hole, and stay still in the fast flow while surveying the scene.
I think these two comments ^ have a good handle on the type of current one should be striving to create in a "riverine" tank. There are certainly some species of fish that can relax and enjoy a tumultuous, violent unidirectional water flow; I have a group of Panda Garras in my decidedly non-riverine community, and when not foraging for food they spend considerable amounts of time suctioned in place directly in front of the outflow of one of the wavemakers. They look as though they are in a wind-tunnel, often only a few inches in front of the pump, but seem to be adapted to this type of environment and experience no stress or discomfort. Hillstream loaches appear to be similar in this regard, although I have never owned them.
But the majority of fish from fast-flowing waters simply aren't built to combat the flow constantly. I've spent a lot of time in and along local streams and creeks, either knee-deep and with a net in each hand
or merely observing, and it's apparent that the vast majority of species in these tumultuous environments spend most of their time out of the main flow.A fly fisherman casting his offering to trout in a fast-flowing stream knows that the fish are almost always in a still pocket or an eddy, and learns to identify visible structure like boulders and bends in the stream to locate these sweetspots. The fish will dart out and brave the main current to catch an item of food, but they certainly don't spend much time doing so. Brief periods of active feeding, which will involve burning a lot of energy to simply control/change/maintain position, are interspersed with long periods of rest in relatively still water.
I don't think that a single species of fish on the carefully-curated list of inhabitants for the tank being discussed here belong to that rarified group of athletes that want to...or even can...battle a firehose current. Set up the tank, put the filter intake at one end and the outflow at the other end, maybe position a wavemaker or two, and call it good.
This is easy to do if you are using either a sump or a canister. HOB's? A bit trickier; in the past, using an original Aquaclear 500 HOB filter (essentially the same as the current 110), I had great luck simply building a brand new intake pipe that extended the length of the tank to draw water from the far end, allowing it to overflow back into the tank at the filter and then flow back to the other end for pick-up again.
Basically, whatever filter you use, if it draws its intake from one end and then returns the water at the other end...you have a riverine tank suitable for almost all species. Add a wavemaker or two for localized "blasts" of faster water, which can be aimed in any direction. The overall flow will still be along the length of the tank from one end to the other...just like every river and stream on the planet.
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They don't? I was always under the impression they had to be hooked to the tank rim, thereby going above the water.
Such as the image from Aquaclear:
If this isn't mandatory, the river manifold is of course a good idea since it won't conflict for lid space.
The rest of what you said together with the also top-tier advice from
Midwater
and
jjohnwm
does make plenty of sense. It's logical for riverine fish to prefer eddies or comparatively calm waters even if they occassionally swim in the very fast flow (the trout example was very useful to help me understand why that is so).So I won't have to worry about that too much. As jjohnwm also said, I now see not much would be needed to call it good.
And really, I can't thank all of you enough.
Not all need to be hooked to the rim. Some have the hook over, some have suction cups and some give both to use either option.
Looks like you are getting more and more prepared for an excellent setup.
Looking forward to tracking its progress.
Looks like you are getting more and more prepared for an excellent setup.
Looking forward to tracking its progress.
As mentioned by
Midwater
and
jjohnwm
. The high flow is not necessary and can be better suited to other hilstream species. If the unidirectional flow is what you are looking for, then use a pump with lower flow and you will get a nicely flowing river effect.
My 75gal has this more than a current even with the high flow.
The river manifold can be used for this to great effect depending on what height you set the powerheads up to.
Midwater
and
jjohnwm
. The high flow is not necessary and can be better suited to other hilstream species. If the unidirectional flow is what you are looking for, then use a pump with lower flow and you will get a nicely flowing river effect. My 75gal has this more than a current even with the high flow.
The river manifold can be used for this to great effect depending on what height you set the powerheads up to.
For Dave, thanks! I wish I could know what Martin Thoene (before he gave up fishkeeping) would think of this setup, given its similarity to his.
Anyway, for both Dave and cockroach, there has been another update as of today that very, very nicely matches the advice I have been given.
I went to the pet store today to return the Sicce XStream 8000, and they didn't accept it because it went in water. The thing is, though, it works perfectly for recreating what Midwater described as loaches' habitat.
Given that it sends a wide, slower flow across some of the tank (like much of the loach habitat), it can be used to recreate that part together with a faster product (eg: the powerhead and manifold) which recreates the occasional fast-flowing part, and the calm part the XStream's flow does not extend to is a good place for the riverine fish to get out of the flow and rest at the calm bottom when they so desire.
When I find paper I will draw this. For now, hopefully this description will suffice.
The fast-flowing product and XStream will be on the same end of the tank, next to each other. The fast flowing product will send a fast (but narrow, to replicate that it's only occasional in loach habitat) current across most of the tank length on one side, while on the other will be the wide, slower XStream's flow.
Where the XStream peters out will be the previously mentioned calmer area to allow the riverine fish a smooth transition to the calm bottom.
Only step now is to find pantyhose for the XStream intake to stop kuhlis getting ground!
Anyway, for both Dave and cockroach, there has been another update as of today that very, very nicely matches the advice I have been given.
I went to the pet store today to return the Sicce XStream 8000, and they didn't accept it because it went in water. The thing is, though, it works perfectly for recreating what Midwater described as loaches' habitat.
Given that it sends a wide, slower flow across some of the tank (like much of the loach habitat), it can be used to recreate that part together with a faster product (eg: the powerhead and manifold) which recreates the occasional fast-flowing part, and the calm part the XStream's flow does not extend to is a good place for the riverine fish to get out of the flow and rest at the calm bottom when they so desire.
When I find paper I will draw this. For now, hopefully this description will suffice.
The fast-flowing product and XStream will be on the same end of the tank, next to each other. The fast flowing product will send a fast (but narrow, to replicate that it's only occasional in loach habitat) current across most of the tank length on one side, while on the other will be the wide, slower XStream's flow.
Where the XStream peters out will be the previously mentioned calmer area to allow the riverine fish a smooth transition to the calm bottom.
Only step now is to find pantyhose for the XStream intake to stop kuhlis getting ground!
Tragic update. Hopefully this will be as tragic as things get.
It looks like, unfortunately, my clown loaches (particularly the alpha) in the 1st 473 liter are trying to eat the new black kuhli loaches I put in there. I thought they were habituated to kuhli loaches by cohabiting with the existing ones for some years - apparently not
. That also rules out me having 60-80+ black kuhlis in the future custom clown loach tank like I originally planned, but I'm more than fine with it if it means preventing them from being eaten.
Tomorrow, I will catch out all the black kuhli loaches (hopefully none got eaten yet!) and put them temporarily in the 110 liter with the dwarf chain loaches. There they will stay until this tank is ready for them, I expect it will be by the middle of August.
Only concern about putting them there, is crowding. Would 48-60 kuhli loaches be too many for a footprint of 1.83m x 47cm together with the Botia?
I'd hate to be crowding them, so I can easily cut back on the striped kuhli loaches as needed.
It looks like, unfortunately, my clown loaches (particularly the alpha) in the 1st 473 liter are trying to eat the new black kuhli loaches I put in there. I thought they were habituated to kuhli loaches by cohabiting with the existing ones for some years - apparently not
. That also rules out me having 60-80+ black kuhlis in the future custom clown loach tank like I originally planned, but I'm more than fine with it if it means preventing them from being eaten.Tomorrow, I will catch out all the black kuhli loaches (hopefully none got eaten yet!) and put them temporarily in the 110 liter with the dwarf chain loaches. There they will stay until this tank is ready for them, I expect it will be by the middle of August.
Only concern about putting them there, is crowding. Would 48-60 kuhli loaches be too many for a footprint of 1.83m x 47cm together with the Botia?
I'd hate to be crowding them, so I can easily cut back on the striped kuhli loaches as needed.
