Setting up my second loach tank.

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

I think the zebra are just as active as the chains. Both prefer the lower water, and come up confidently when they want.

I hope you're right about this. NancyD said zebras were much shyer than chains.

Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank - Loaches Online Forum

Granted, every tank is different, which makes for different behavior. So I'll do all I can to encourage more activity, including taking your advice.

One difference, with the chain loaches, the larger they are they more you see them, and with the zebra loaches, the larger ones lay low and guard their territory.

Thanks for telling me. That's.....unexpected for zebra loaches.
Honestly it's a bit of a shame if true, because they look their best when largest. Really hope the circumstances of my tank encourange activity even when large.

I do not think that quarantine would have changed their behaviour. Was your quarantine tank plain or planted? If it was too plain, they might not like it.

Had some synthetic caves and fake plants, but not too many because of lack of space (it's only a 38 liter).
My guess is the small size of the quarantine tank was why the chain loaches were hiding while in it.

The way to make loaches confident is to have a large group - a large group

Indeed. 5 or 6 at the very least, and more is always better.
I plan on 9 zebra loaches for this tank, so my guess is having 3-4 more than the minimum will play in my favor.

and plenty of decoration. They tend to get active when you don't expect them.

That's true too. The more places to hide and/or investigate, the safer they feel and the more compelled they are to be active.
So far, would you say I have enough decoration from the photos in my previous update? Speaking in terms of the caves along the back here, I will be adding some more fake plants plus some wood and stones to the front.

When I add those of course, I will put in another picture so you can see whether or not it might be enough for the front.

Although striata are larger, they can be a little fragile and not as long lived as chains. If chain loaches are happy, you can easily get twenty years out of them.

Yes, I do remember reading about such an age from chain loaches in your first thread about them! Given that potential 20 year age for chains, I'd say you'd be correct on zebras not being as long lived.
Most sources I find give 10-15 years as zebra loach lifespan. That's still pretty long lived, but definitely not as long lived as a fish easily capable of 20.

In what aspect are zebra loaches a little fragile though, if I may ask?
Water quality? Space? Enrichment? Dissolved oxygen? Something else? The longest I've ever owned them was 3 days, so I don't know as much on fine points like this as I'd like.

I do not know if dither fish make a difference with loaches. I have got denisons and SAE in the small loach partition, but not as dither, but because I like them and they generally stay in mid to high water.

I would say my biggest concern is whether or not the sharks and barbs will have a dither fish effect. It seems pretty variable among loaches.
For example, I didn't notice any changes in behavior of my clown loaches when I got my archerfish. But Martin Thoene on the other hand has found tiger barbs began working almost immediately as dither fish: https://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=506&p=3669&hilit=forgot#p3669

My theory - and it's just a theory - is that if the zebra loaches are individuals that would be more affected by dither fish, seeing roseline sharks out of all possible dithers will be exceptionally good for more zebra loach activity. Since they're found together in the wild, it ought to make the (wild caught) zebras feel more at home in the tank and thereby more confident.
The same ought to be the case with the Burmese loaches and Odessa barbs. Any thoughts on this theory?

Looking forward to more updates.

You won't be disappointed! I can tell you that there will be at least 1 or 2 updates between now and the set-up date of June 29, after which I expect regular updates every 2-4 weeks.

 

[Midwater]

M MultipleTankSyndrome There seems to me to be a fine dividing line between loaches from the east and the west - locally that is - for me.

Chain loaches come straight down the middle, are hardy, long lived, and look great. Although they are small and thin when young, they do get considerably fatter as they get older.

On the western side - going into Burma and beyond - they seem to be a bit flimsier. I do like striata, and as you said, they do look great when they are bigger. But they do not quite get that robust look. By "Burmese" locahes, I presume you mean kubotai. They don't get fat either, and I don't much like the look of them when they get big. I don't think they particularly last long either.

Going east is better. Modesta come from the central region and east, and are the monsters of loaches.

Further still into Loas and there are some great loaches, skunks and splendida. Splendida look incredible. Everything you would want from a loach, medium sized, get fat and round, not shy, full of character. Of course you need a bunch of them. I saw a tank full of them four years ago in a LFS. I got the lot.

Now, as for the loaches.com website. There is a lot of information, a lot of good information, and also IMHO a significant amount of misinformation and unqualified opinion. Don't rely on it. (There are good reasons I stopped participating in their forum an awful long time ago.)

 

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

There seems to me to be a fine dividing line between loaches from the east and the west - locally that is - for me.

Chain loaches come straight down the middle, are hardy, long lived, and look great. Although they are small and thin when young, they do get considerably fatter as they get older.

Never had a geography lesson in loaches but you're a great teacher.
My best geography teacher ever!

On the western side - going into Burma and beyond - they seem to be a bit flimsier. I do like striata, and as you said, they do look great when they are bigger. But they do not quite get that robust look. By "Burmese" locahes, I presume you mean kubotai. They don't get fat either, and I don't much like the look of them when they get big. I don't think they particularly last long either.

Yes, I did mean B. kubotai by Burmese loach. Perhaps that wasn't as obvious as I thought, considering Burmese loach is far from the only common name of B. kubotai.
I personally still like the look of them when they get larger, which I find pretty fortunate (although, if you only like the young colors, I can see why you might not be a big fan of the adults). They've only been in the hobby since 2006, so lifespan isn't clear. I'm hoping mine last 10 years at least (my personal threshold for long lived fish).

One exception to this could be the yoyo loach. Everything I have seen and read indicates that this is among the most robust of the Botia by far.
What do you think of yoyos in this respect?

Further still into Loas and there are some great loaches, skunks and splendida. Splendida look incredible. Everything you would want from a loach, medium sized, get fat and round, not shy, full of character. Of course you need a bunch of them. I saw a tank full of them four years ago in a LFS. I got the lot.

Their Latin name of splendida couldn't have been given to a better Yasuhikotakia. I've never seen them for sale where I am though.

Oh well, could be worse. Better to have 1 splendid loach unavailable than all splendid loaches unavailable.

Now, as for the loaches.com website. There is a lot of information, a lot of good information, and also IMHO a significant amount of misinformation and unqualified opinion. Don't rely on it. (There are good reasons I stopped participating in their forum an awful long time ago.)

I wouldn't go so far as to not rely on it entirely. For starters I did find the recommendation of just zebras and Burmese for this tank instead of yoyos, zebras, and Burmese a pretty good one, because not only are yoyos possibly too aggressive for zebras, they may very well eat the kuhlis like my clown loaches tried to and an overly mixed school is not too appealing.
But I absolutely agree that there is a share of misinformation, as well as the unqualified opinions. Take a look at my disagreement with Nancy in that thread, for example.
The bad must be taken with the good, and eventually separated with the advice of loach keepers such as yourself, for the overall best result.

 

[Midwater]

Just for M MultipleTankSyndrome
Been out to a LFS.
They had a tank full of kubotai (sorry for the bad quality).

Did not fancy them.
They also had a tank full of tigers.

Liked them more.
And they also had a tank with fifteen small skunks, all for (equiv) nine dollars.

Against better judgement perhaps, I resisted temptation.

 

[anitstuk123]

Looking good so far!

 

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

Just for M MultipleTankSyndrome
Been out to a LFS.
They had a tank full of kubotai (sorry for the bad quality).
View attachment 1496823
Did not fancy them.

Thanks for the picture! Boy do I wish I was in your shoes, the pet store where I am sold their last Burmese loaches out in April and they don't know when they will get more......

Personally, I do fancy those ones quite a lot (except on account of age, I'd rather buy younger unspotted fish so I can have more time with them). Guess that shows how different subjective tastes can be.

They also had a tank full of tigers.

Liked them more.
And they also had a tank with fifteen small skunks, all for (equiv) nine dollars.

Against better judgement perhaps, I resisted temptation.

Some time before I decided on the final stocking, I contemplated turning this tank into a 'Grrrr Tank' with redfin tiger loaches, skunk loaches, bucktooth tetras as dithers, and an Asian upside down catfish for variety. This is a flashback to that time.

 

[Midwater]

Some time before I decided on the final stocking, I contemplated turning this tank into a 'Grrrr Tank' with redfin tiger loaches, skunk loaches, bucktooth tetras as dithers, and an Asian upside down catfish for variety. This is a flashback to that time.

Just get another tank.

 

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

Oh trust me, I tried. Not an option,

No big deal. 3 tanks is an excellent amount and I'm very grateful for them anyway.

 

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

Came across a little dillemma at the pet store today. I'm really not sure of how to approach this.

In addition to the colorful Odessa barbs I put some photos of, I saw some baby Odessa barbs about the size of peas and fairly lacking in color. I also remembered Fishman Dave saying colorful store Odessa barbs are probably older males, which I wouldn't want since I have less time with them.
Problem is, those babies are small enough to be eaten by the roseline sharks. So far the following (and most probably being unsuccessful) ideas have come to mind:

-Get the Odessa barbs first and grow them out in this tank before getting roselines. Problem with this is that sources I found say it takes Odessas 3-4 months to get to adult size, at which point the roseline sharks will likely sell out.
This wouldn't be a problem if the pet store regularly got in healthy roselines, but they don't - their current shipment is the healthiest I have seen so far, and all the rest have a significant portion of injured and maimed fish, which I of course do not want.

-Get the roseline sharks first as planned, and grow the Odessa barbs out in the quarantine tank for 3-4 months. Problem with this is that the quarantine tank is only 38 liters, so cannot provide the needed space for growth-stimulating exercise and will therefore likely stunt the Odessas.
Additionally, zebra/Burmese/healthy striped kuhli loaches are quite sporadic in their availability at the pet store, meaning if I do this, the quarantine tank may well be taken up by the time they are available.

-Get the roseline sharks first as planned, but grow the Odessa barbs out in my 110 liter (signature).
This seems the most likely of all the options to work, but lack of space is still a concern. With the existing 12 dwarf chain loaches and 30-total mix of green neon/cardinal tetras, 9 Odessas would put it as very overstocked during those 3-4 months.

-Get the roseline sharks first as planned, but let the Odessa barbs grow up at the pet store before getting them. Problem with this is that they could easily sell out in 3-4 months.

-Proceed as I would if the Odessa barbs were too big to be eaten, because roseline sharks don't usually eat even smaller fish. This may very well work, but it also may well not work because the Odessas ultimately still fit in the roselines' mouths and therefore can be eaten.

-Get the probably older males because of too much risk with the other options. This is not my preferred choice, but if it's a choice between older Odessas and younger Odessas that will quickly be eaten, I have no issue doing it.

Any thoughts on which of these is best?

 

[cockroach]

It's a dilemma but a nice one to have.

You could get the odessa and put them in a guppy breeding net in the tank with roselines if you are worried about predation. Once large enough release intop the tank they are already in.

Your location is near my Roachloachville so I am assuming you are also in summer. You could set up a small garden tub and let them growout there for a month or so and then add them to tank when slightly larger.