Bearded dragon nutritional needs

[snakefin]

Well, I get rather annoyed when I can't figure things out. So I would like to know a little more about their needs when it comes to nutrition. For one, I know that they need a Ca ratio of at least 2:1, but as Melissa Kaplan has mentioned before, diet is not so much of just calcium and phosphorus, it is about everything else as well. What I do not know is about the essential vitamins that a bearded dragon needs, and their relative amount or percentages in comparison with each other. Nor, for that matter, do I know about the protein and other basic chemical substances that the bearded dragon needs. So in the process of researching, I came across some stuff that brought question marks. On the beautiful dragons website's nutrition list, they mention that some vegetables which seem to have good nutritional values to me, are questionable for consumption.

Here is the most puzzling example.
Olives, which have a whopping Ca ratio of 29:1. Why is this bad?

In addition to this, I would also like to know how much to vegetable matter to serve a bearded dragon and how often should they have vegetable matter, daily or alternate days. I'm referring to adult bearded dragons here.
How do you negate the effects of oxalate and goigotrens?

And...my bad for the long post.

 

[LRM]

You're making this too complicated.

Offer lots of different insects. There are plenty of good roach species to start your own feeder colonies. Throw in meal worms, superworms, crickets and waxworms and you have great invert food variety.

Now make sure you gut load all those feeders with romaine lettuce, squash, carrots, and any fruits you can think and you have one half of the diet taken care of.

Now make sure you always have fresh plant matter for the beardie. Squashes, strawberries, melon, kale, bok choy, romaine lettuce, carrot etc. Remember that adults will prefer more plant matter in their diets.

Hatchlings eat inverts daily, juvies every other day and adults can do a few days between feedings. Have plant matter on hand every day along with fresh water.

If you feel that isn't enough get a dietary supplement and dust feeders once a week for adults and twice a week for hatchlings.

Its really simple, people confuse themselves when they read all the garbage available on the net.

And while it may be tempting, you really never need to feed them pinkies. They aren't active predators of mammals.

Does this help at all?

 

[snakefin]

Well, it does remind me that I can't quite do all the research and make a perfect diet, if that was possible, it would have been done some time ago. You've also help to answer the frequency. So considering the elimination of all the confusing science, I still need to know what is wrong with olives and how much to vegetable matter to feed daily.

 

[Sylvias]

With a Ca ratio of 29:1 they will be providing way to much calcium without the needed phosphorus... calcium is useless without phosphorus, they need to be used together in order for the dragon to actually get anything out of it which is why the ratios are so important.. also most of the olives we eat come in cans and are probably to processed and acidic for them, I honestly have never seen a fresh olive >.>
It's a simple food to avoid.....stick to the advice above....
Although I would avoid kale and use more dark leafy greens such as collard and mustard greens as the main subject of beardie salad. Carrots and a few other things like kale, cabbage, grapes, spinach etc. should be a treat, not a daily thing because they contain calcium oxalates that bind calcium so it cannot be digested, or goitrogens which bind iron and causes goiters.
Always avoid acidic fruits such as citrus and tomato.
I am not sure why but everything I have ever read says to NEVER feed advocado to animals be it, bird, hamster or reptile..... I keep trying to find out why exactly but haven't been successful. still so many sources say not to so best to avoid it.

 

[Sylvias]

This is the list I was looking for when I was typing my previous post.

This information is found in Green Iguana: The Ultimate Owners Manual- page 272, 273

Veggies high in Oxalates
Spinach
Chard
Beets
rhubarb
whole grains (i know..not a veggie)
beet greens
dock
sorrel
carrots

Veggies with Goitrogens
kale
cabbage
broccoli
cauliflower
brussels sprouts
bok choy

 

[snakefin]

I hope you don't see my counter point here as being unnecessarily stubborn, still a year away from getting a beardie by the way. But would olives not counter the large amounts of phosphorus given by insects? Unless those are already countered by calcium supplements. The canned olives part, I agree.

 

[coura]

I dont think olives would in any way be a good adition to a bearded dragon diet. Some things that we eat are simply not ment to be eaten by reptiles, chocolate and avocado for example and reptiles of many species in the wild eat for berries that are toxic to humans. Stick to normal food tipes.

 

[Sylvias]

That would be why we use calcium and vitamin supplements... it is near impossible for us to exactly recreate a natural diet for our animals so we have supplements to make it easy.

 

[snakefin]

Okay, thanks for your confirmations. I shall copy and paste my intended "salad" here. Please comment on it, and most of all check its proportions. Kai Lan is a vegetable that I don't think you guys have access to in the US or western countries, but it should be similar to the good greens. Likewise, I don't have access to collard or dandelion greens.

(Monday)
1/2 cup of Mustard Greens
1/2 cup of Endives
1/2 cup of Alfafa pellets
1/4 cup of Shredded Cactus Pad
1/4 cup of Papaya

(Tuesday)
1/4 cup of Mustard Greens
1/4 cup of Endives
1/4 cup of Bok Choy
1/4 cup of Kai Lan
1/8 cup of mixed bell peppers
1/4 cup of Shredded Cactus Pad
1/4 cup of green beans

(Wednesday)
1/2 cup of Mustard Greens
1/2 cup of Endives
1/2 cup of Alfafa pellets
1/4 cup of green beans
1/4 cup of mashed fruit

(Thursday)
1/4 cup of Mustard Greens
1/4 cup of Endives
1/4 cup of Bok Choy
1/4 cup of Kai Lan
1/8 cup of mixed bell peppers
1/4 cup of Shredded Cactus Pad
1/4 cup of green beans

(Friday)
1/2 cup of Mustard Greens
1/2 cup of Endives
1/2 cup of Alfafa pellets
1/4 cup of Shredded Cactus Pad
1/4 cup of Papaya

(Saturday)
1/4 cup of Mustard Greens
1/4 cup of Endives
1/4 cup of Bok Choy
1/4 cup of Kai Lan
1/4 cup of cabbage
1/4 cup of Shredded Cactus Pad
1/4 cup of green beans

(Sunday)
1/2 cup of Mustard Greens
1/2 cup of Endives
1/2 cup of Alfafa pellets
1/4 cup of green beans
1/4 cup of mashed fruit

 

[TheMightyOscar]

as a general rule(that i have always followed)

babies and juveniles(up to 7"-12") should be on a ratio of 80% insects to 20% greens/fruits. a baby dragon can eat up to 50 small crickets/roaches/mealworms a day.

adults(15"-20") should be on 80% greens/fruits and 20% insects.

i use at least 3 different leafy greens and 2 veggies/2 fruits every day except saturday and sunday(insect days) and my dragons have always done well.

the only real way to negate the effect from foods high in oxalates and goitrogens, is to feed foods that are low in both, in addition to foods that are high in both. you'd want to feed more foods low in oxalates and goitro than you would high. foods high in these would be given maybe once or twice within a month.