Can we talk PH?

[805hd]

neutrino I actually came back to the bucket test again yesterday. Giving it another go. Yes there is a single air stone in there. Last time I only did it for 24 hours. Since the tank seems to change after about 72 hours I’m gonna see what it reads up to that.

If the bucket test is unchanged then I guess I’ll know it’s something happening in the tank.

If it changed in the bucket then I guess my only option would be to age my water prior to a water change.

I do have a RO set up. I just haven’t installed or messed with it yet. Lots of people using tap water with success and it definitely simplifies things compared to chasing numbers, adding buffers and all that crap that comes with RO.

duanes does it? Sometimes it’s hard for me to tell. I know we’re not talking about a huge swing (0.6 if my numbers are correct) The fish seem to be fine. I just worry about the long term effects of that. I always complicate things. lol. These fish are just so god damn beautiful. I had to do it.

 

[duanes]

pH is considered logarithmic.
A ph of 7.6 to 60 times more basic than a pH of 7.0.
A pH of 6.5. is 50 times more acidic than 7.0 etc etc
So although the numbers seem small, they are not really.

My water with a pH of 8.2, resists change like crazy no matter what I do.

I did an experiment where I gradually added almond leaf litter to the 180 gal tank.
I gave up on the experiment after the substrate was literally covered with a 2" layer of leaf litter (almost a bushel of leaves),
the water became tinted brown with tannins
and the pH did not drop more than a 10th, even though the tank was stacked with an number of 5 ft driftwood logs.
Its all about the buffering capacity (alkalinity) of the source water.


The tannins subsided with my normal 100% per week water change schedule

 

[805hd]

duanes that makes sense. I appreciate the info more than you know. The whole PH thing is starting to make sense. Well how it works at least. Especially in relation to KH ect.

I did order an alkalinity test per your recommendation. I want to know exactly what I’m working with out of the tap. Not just an understanding. I want numbers to plug in.

It’s only been but 15 hours. Water in buckets unchanged at 7.4 ph

 

[TwoTankAmin]

In our tanks what holds pH from dropping is KH.

Buffering Capacity (KH, Alkalinity)

Buffering capacity refers to water's ability to keep the pH stable as acids or bases are added. pH and buffering capacity are intertwined with one another; although one might think that adding equal volumes of an acid and neutral water would result in a pH halfway in between, this rarely happens in practice. If the water has sufficient buffering capacity, the buffering capacity can absorb and neutralize the added acid without significantly changing the pH. Conceptually, a buffer acts somewhat like a large sponge. As more acid is added, the ``sponge'' absorbs the acid without changing the pH much. The ``sponge's'' capacity is limited however; once the buffering capacity is used up, the pH changes more rapidly as acids are added.

Buffering has both positive and negative consequences. On the plus side, the nitrogen cycle produces nitric acid (nitrate). Without buffering, your tank's pH would drop over time (a bad thing). With sufficient buffering, the pH stays stable (a good thing). On the negative side, hard tap water often almost always has a large buffering capacity. If the pH of the water is too high for your fish, the buffering capacity makes it difficult to lower the pH to a more appropriate value. Naive attempts to change the pH of water usually fail because buffering effects are ignored.

In freshwater aquariums, most of water's buffering capacity is due to carbonates and bicarbonates. Thus, the terms ``carbonate hardness'' (KH), ``alkalinity'' and ``buffering capacity'' are used interchangeably. Although technically not the same things, they are equivalent in practice in the context of fishkeeping. Note: the term ``alkalinity'' should not be confused with the term ``alkaline''. Alkalinity refers to buffering, while alkaline refers to a solution that is a base (i.e., pH > 7).

As for the out-gassing of CO2. I have well water. When I set up my first tank in Jan. 2001 my testing said my water was acid pH when I tested it from the tap. But I did not know about it being possible to have high levels of CO2 in the water that came from the tap. Testing in the tank showed it to be about 7.4. And then I was educated on out-gassing and learned my tap water really was 7.4. It takes very little time for tap water in a small container that is being aerated to bring the water to its natural CO2 and O levels. All this takes is surface agitation. This is also usually how we get gasses into and out of our tank water. To do the out-gassing for texting pH it takes a matter of minutes for the CO2 level to hit equilibrium either out or in-gassing depending n the state of the tap water.

Next, the nirtifying bacteria in our tanks as well as some of the live plants can get the carbon they need from carbonates/bicarbonates as well as CO@. So, over time and in the absence of anything replacing them, carbonates/bicarbonates can get used up. And as they do the pH will drop.

For years I had a tank with Altum angels in which I used RO/DI water. I mixed it with my tap and never needed to mineralize it at all, In fact at times I had to add a bit of muriatic acid as the pH drifted up. The tanks was targeted to be int eh 50s ppm-wise for TDS and the pH at 6.0 and never higger than about 6.4. I kept a pair of discus for a few years in my tap with no issues.

What I have learned is that there is a difference between wild and tank raised fish. This is especuially true with species which have been regularly line bred for color and/or for fins. Angels and discus are perfect examples. When I was starting ith Altums it was with wilds and the tank for reeivng themn was 20 ppm TDS and 4.2 pH. In the end the discus I kept ofr the longest we tank bred in Las Vegas (very few people can do this). They loved int he 6.0 50-60ppm TDS water for years until I sold them a few months back.

In reading this thread where it starts with the pH being off between the tank and tap and then no change in the bucket and then the pH from the tap being 7.4 in the bucket, I came to the conclusion that the most likely explanation could be testing error. I could be wrong in this but JIK, here are my rules for how I do it.

- Rinse the test tube in tap water 1st and shake it somewhat dry.
- Dip the tube into tank several inches below the surface to fill it. Then empty it pouring it into the cap so that rinses as well.
- Hold the tube open end down, submerge it to mid-level of the tank and fill it. Don't take water from the surface anything floating there goes in the tube.
- Perform the Test. Make sure to use the cap and never a finger to seal the top of the tube when shaking/inverting to mix.
- Dump the solution out of the tube and then rinse the tube and cap out with tap.

For my Altum tank I had a continuous digital monitor which measured conductivity or TDS, temperature in F or C and pH. I transferred the probes to the can of changing water so the parameters there would bring my tank back closer to the target levels. I could not use the liquid test as I had very stained water using almomd leaves, alder cones and Rooibos tea.

 

[805hd]

TwoTankAmin appreciate the write up, thank you for that. I obtain my water sample with a plastic syringe one of two ways.

A. Out of the sump on the return side or

B. Right off the surface of the tank

I haven’t noticed any difference in reading between the two methods BUT i will certainly give yours a try. Grabbing a water sample out of the tank well below the surface makes perfect sense. Had never thought about it before, valid point though.

I’ll give it a go.

As I said before, I’d really like to stick with tap water for nothing else other than it’s easier. RO isn’t off the table.

I just can’t determine if the change is coming from in the tank or not. I really don’t know what it could be. If the tank is changing the parameters then no mater what I put in RO or not is going to fluctuate right?

 

[skjl47]

here are my rules for how I do it.

- Rinse the test tube in tap water 1st and shake it somewhat dry.
- Dip the tube into tank several inches below the surface to fill it. Then empty it pouring it into the cap so that rinses as well.
- Hold the tube open end down, submerge it to mid-level of the tank and fill it. Don't take water from the surface anything floating there goes in the tube.
- Perform the Test. Make sure to use the cap and never a finger to seal the top of the tube when shaking/inverting to mix.
- Dump the solution out of the tube and then rinse the tube and cap out with tap.

Hello; I like the above suggestions. Let me add one other step. That being to have a jug of distilled water around. Two purposes for this. The distilled water can be used as a cleaner of the vials/tubes. The Distilled water (DI)sort of picks up contaminants to a degree.
The other purpose is to calibrate testing procedures. Test the DI and it should be very close to neutral (Ph of 7 if i recall correctly)

 

[805hd]

duanes I tested my alkalinity out the tap and it came back @80 ppm. Hardness was at 120 and the ph showed 7.6.

I’m not sure what that means for my fish, but being that things are pretty much the same all around and I didn’t get any strange readings from the bucket test I did whatever is raising my PH is either in my head or in my tank lol

Should I test my tank water also?

I just did a big water change today, so I should probably wait…

 

[duanes]

You can test your tank right away, and then test before a normally scheduled a water change.
One of the reasons we test water parameters, is to determine how ofter water changes should be done....
If the water coming from the tap is pH 7.6, but changes to 7.0 before a normal water change, it may mean that the scheduled water changes need to be doubled to maintain proper 7.6 water, that 7.6 stability, is your gold standard, but its not only about just pH.
If after a water change your nitrate concentration is 5 ppm, but creeps up to 20 ppm before the next scheduled water change,
That means you need to double of triple your water change schedule, and volume changed.
That intitial 5 ppm is your gold standard.

For example, where I collect cichlid, nitrates are a 0.00 ppm, norm, and an average 8.2 pH.

So I consider that, my goal, the standard these cichlids need to live by,
and that is what my tanks average should alway be, to maintain the fishes I catch healthy.
A couple test results of the tanks water below.



To maintain the standard that meets, healthy conditions where my fish are endemic,
I need to do at least 100% water changes of the tanks water per week ,
and the 180 gallon tank, is also filtered by a 125 gal heavily planted sump.


The planted sump/refufium, above and below.