Contained Carbon dosing in freshwater aquarium.
- Thread starter markstrimaran
- Start date
Yes, I have noticed. I LOG it more for my own reference.
Salt water carbon dosing is a common way that reef tanks keep nitrates very low.
VERY FEW have attempted it with fresh water.
Salt water carbon dosing is a common way that reef tanks keep nitrates very low.
VERY FEW have attempted it with fresh water.
Isn't it simpler to do large water changes on a regular basis? I considered doing this a year or so ago, but in my world, water changes was easier. Are you going through all this primarily because you enjoy the challenge? I do find it interesting!
Well the 30 gallon is easy to do a water change on. I looked into algae scrubbers, refugium, pothos, ivy, continuous drip, purigen, sulfur denitrators, coil denitrators, and the various dosing.
My tap water is high in nitrates and silicates, an algae scrubber will put too much heat in my tank, as would the refugium. The pet Cat would destroy pothos, or die trying.
Continuous drip, is an option, except for the Ice berg problem in winter.
Purigen is a pita to recharge, kind of pricey.
Sulfur denitrators are expensive,
The coil denitrators can be improved upon. Various dosing is said not to work in fresh water since it requires a protein skimmer.
I will soon have 2, 75 gallon tanks double stacked. I am building a steel tank stand currently.
They are going to be overstocked with African cichlids. If I can keep nitrates from requiring constant water changes. So far from the experiment on the 30, with a slightly modified canister denitrator, I will be able keep nitrates in the 150 gallons around 5 ppm constantly.
Then doing water changes based on other paramiters, like what the silicates, and alkalinity are doing.
It is also very inexpensive, almost free if compared too good LED lighting, or plumbing in a continuous drip system.
Basically it is three buckets, full of rocks, and some small valves. The $50.00 Orp meter is the only big ticket item.
Lots of reading, and resurching mostly saltwater related. Most fresh water dosing, denitrators, I have read about was done haphazardly. With huge bacterial bloom, stinking messes, and crashing the tank.
Others with flow rates so slow that it was pointless to even bother.
Which lead up to the other experiment on the fluidized sand bed denitrator.
Which in theory might be able to achieve 100+ gallons a day of clean water. With minimal chance of producing any H2S.
My tap water is high in nitrates and silicates, an algae scrubber will put too much heat in my tank, as would the refugium. The pet Cat would destroy pothos, or die trying.
Continuous drip, is an option, except for the Ice berg problem in winter.
Purigen is a pita to recharge, kind of pricey.
Sulfur denitrators are expensive,
The coil denitrators can be improved upon. Various dosing is said not to work in fresh water since it requires a protein skimmer.
I will soon have 2, 75 gallon tanks double stacked. I am building a steel tank stand currently.
They are going to be overstocked with African cichlids. If I can keep nitrates from requiring constant water changes. So far from the experiment on the 30, with a slightly modified canister denitrator, I will be able keep nitrates in the 150 gallons around 5 ppm constantly.
Then doing water changes based on other paramiters, like what the silicates, and alkalinity are doing.
It is also very inexpensive, almost free if compared too good LED lighting, or plumbing in a continuous drip system.
Basically it is three buckets, full of rocks, and some small valves. The $50.00 Orp meter is the only big ticket item.
Lots of reading, and resurching mostly saltwater related. Most fresh water dosing, denitrators, I have read about was done haphazardly. With huge bacterial bloom, stinking messes, and crashing the tank.
Others with flow rates so slow that it was pointless to even bother.
Which lead up to the other experiment on the fluidized sand bed denitrator.
Which in theory might be able to achieve 100+ gallons a day of clean water. With minimal chance of producing any H2S.
I have carbon dosed, vodka, in reef tanks with protein skimmers and have dosed some in FW too. I have also dosed carbon, kalk dissolved in vinegar, in reef tanks without protein skimmers. None of those used any sort of additional equipment besides an automated dosing pump. I have not done a great deal of it with FW, but I did dose vodka in a tank for a couple of months without any noticeable side effects. The FW tank did not have nitrate above 5ppm, so I don't trust test kits much below that, I mostly wanted to see if I noticed anything. I did not go above 5ml or so in a 120, but there was no cloudy water or anything else noticeable. Just FWIW.
An interesting article about bacterial populations in saltwater tanks including carbon dosing. Of course this is only bacteria in the water column.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature
An interesting article about bacterial populations in saltwater tanks including carbon dosing. Of course this is only bacteria in the water column.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature
Thanks for the article.
Earlier when I first used my undergraval filter as a dosing method. Yes I injected sugar under the gravel with a flow of about 20 Gpd. I reduced nitrates from 180 ppm too 20ppm in about 3 days.
The bacteria bloom resulted in a following bloom of free swimming Cilla pods, and other small visible microorganisms. That were feeding on the bacteria.
I did not like the idea of having a bunch of cilliates. That could potentially infect fish.
So I contained it, so that the excess carbon grown bacteria have to go through 4 filters, to make it into the tank.
Then any free swimming cilliates, have the 700 GPD mechanical filtration to deal with.
One major difference between a my FW tank vs a SW reef, is the amount of food that gets, thrown into the tank.
Cichlids are rough and fins are always healing, and females are always producing eggs. The stress levels are high as is the potential for weakened fish, to get sick.
Which leads me to keep nitrates as low a possible. As nitrates can be absorbed in place of oxygen in the blood. The lower the nitrates, the more oxygen the fish have going to their organs.
Humans breathing pure oxygen, heal faster, have more energy. I think the same is true for all red blooded animals.
A human infant would die from bluebaby syndrome if given water high in nitrates, typically found in some aquariums.
Earlier when I first used my undergraval filter as a dosing method. Yes I injected sugar under the gravel with a flow of about 20 Gpd. I reduced nitrates from 180 ppm too 20ppm in about 3 days.
The bacteria bloom resulted in a following bloom of free swimming Cilla pods, and other small visible microorganisms. That were feeding on the bacteria.
I did not like the idea of having a bunch of cilliates. That could potentially infect fish.
So I contained it, so that the excess carbon grown bacteria have to go through 4 filters, to make it into the tank.
Then any free swimming cilliates, have the 700 GPD mechanical filtration to deal with.
One major difference between a my FW tank vs a SW reef, is the amount of food that gets, thrown into the tank.
Cichlids are rough and fins are always healing, and females are always producing eggs. The stress levels are high as is the potential for weakened fish, to get sick.
Which leads me to keep nitrates as low a possible. As nitrates can be absorbed in place of oxygen in the blood. The lower the nitrates, the more oxygen the fish have going to their organs.
Humans breathing pure oxygen, heal faster, have more energy. I think the same is true for all red blooded animals.
A human infant would die from bluebaby syndrome if given water high in nitrates, typically found in some aquariums.
You might be surprised how much some people feed a reef that carbon dose.
You can see here, my 120g tank had 26 fish that got fed at least 6x per day, plus feeding corals almost every day and about 40 inverts.
http://www.reefedition.com/reef-spotlight-bret-hartmans-120g/
Did you do any identification of the ciliates to see if they can infect the fish and if there are references of those species being opportunistic in otherwise healthy fish with open wounds? Many reefers also were worried about an increase in disease with carbon dosing, but after years of watching results it did not appear to be the case. Reef fish fight a considerable amount especially for those who feel they should keep multiple tangs and smaller (or larger Lionfish). Of course since FW carbon has not been done much (aside from waste treatment) perhaps it is the case.
I do know the legal limit of nitrate in tap was is 10ppm as mandated by the EPA for the reason you mentioned, but I am unaware if that particular mechanism is the same as in fish. With humans the nitrates are converted to nitrites unless I am mistaken I don't know if that is the case in fish, but I am always pretty skeptical of cross-species generalizations.
Although I easily agree that nitrates should be kept very low, plenty of information about that in literature. With the historically inexpensive low cost of tap water WC are pretty easy and effective for FW systems, unless you live in Iowa with nitrate over 10ppm (and lawsuits with EPA). Perhaps as water rates increase more will turn to carbon dosing in FW, although I would think levels over 100ppm indicate a problem with flow or general maintenance and perhaps those issues are better addressed before carbon dosing.
You can see here, my 120g tank had 26 fish that got fed at least 6x per day, plus feeding corals almost every day and about 40 inverts.
http://www.reefedition.com/reef-spotlight-bret-hartmans-120g/
Did you do any identification of the ciliates to see if they can infect the fish and if there are references of those species being opportunistic in otherwise healthy fish with open wounds? Many reefers also were worried about an increase in disease with carbon dosing, but after years of watching results it did not appear to be the case. Reef fish fight a considerable amount especially for those who feel they should keep multiple tangs and smaller (or larger Lionfish). Of course since FW carbon has not been done much (aside from waste treatment) perhaps it is the case.
I do know the legal limit of nitrate in tap was is 10ppm as mandated by the EPA for the reason you mentioned, but I am unaware if that particular mechanism is the same as in fish. With humans the nitrates are converted to nitrites unless I am mistaken I don't know if that is the case in fish, but I am always pretty skeptical of cross-species generalizations.
Although I easily agree that nitrates should be kept very low, plenty of information about that in literature. With the historically inexpensive low cost of tap water WC are pretty easy and effective for FW systems, unless you live in Iowa with nitrate over 10ppm (and lawsuits with EPA). Perhaps as water rates increase more will turn to carbon dosing in FW, although I would think levels over 100ppm indicate a problem with flow or general maintenance and perhaps those issues are better addressed before carbon dosing.
That is a very nice reef. I was always liked salt water but, I have a small budget for fish, I can't eat.
When dosing a salt water reef, I have read that a skimmer is required too remove excess bacteria. Do the corals consume a portion of the excess bacteria?
I have read that vinegar is 8 times less potent than vodka. Which would make sugar the weakest of the three. I think anyways, the 75 is pretty cloudy today after 9 cc of sugar was dosed. Over the last week. It all went mostly unconsumed in the denitrator.
I am unable to tell the difference between some of the good microorganisms and the bad. Most are benign but some are parasites. Notably the nematode type.
As safe guard, I want to keep their number in check., since I have nice fish.
When dosing a salt water reef, I have read that a skimmer is required too remove excess bacteria. Do the corals consume a portion of the excess bacteria?
I have read that vinegar is 8 times less potent than vodka. Which would make sugar the weakest of the three. I think anyways, the 75 is pretty cloudy today after 9 cc of sugar was dosed. Over the last week. It all went mostly unconsumed in the denitrator.
I am unable to tell the difference between some of the good microorganisms and the bad. Most are benign but some are parasites. Notably the nematode type.
As safe guard, I want to keep their number in check., since I have nice fish.
Update, on 75 gallon
Water clarity is 18" with bacterial bloom.
Water is still cold, the heater failed.
Flowing 80 cc/min a steady stream.
Dosing 6cc now, pushed 1 liter of seeded anaerobic bacteria through sand filter, and dosed 6 cc in an hour.
ORP mv is negative -14 and going up, a good sign. Started at -40. +10 mv is the optimal high side.
Nitrate is about 20ppm in effluent.
About the same in the tank. It has gone down since it was 50ppm plus, dark red.
? Not sure, what is going on, the bacteria bloom, and sugar water in the tank, but it's not anoxic in the tank yet.
PH is 7.2 going to start buffering to raise it.
Turned off air supply, small trickle providing limited o2, plus a cubic ft of moss that's producing oxygen.
Stocked with two 4" canary in a coal mine fish. That are hiding in the moss.
