Debunked: CO2-Myth --- See tanks without carbon dioxide fertilization

Zander_The_RBP

Jack Dempsey
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Jan 8, 2009
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jcardona1;4298569; said:
only problem is adding more plants may make the algae problem even worse. algae is caused by a nutrient imbalance (lights/carbon/ferts). the stronger the lighting, the greater the demand plants have on other nutrients (co2/ferts). adding more plants does not reduce the light intensity, the intensity remains the same and only creates more nutrient demands.

when plants dont have the nutrients to meet their demands, they can no longer outcompete algae and algae begins to pop up. only way to get rid of the algae is provide the other nutrients adequately (co2/ferts) or reduce the lighting intensity. this is as simple as lifting the fixture above the tank a few inches...
it does not reduce the lightning intensity but it will still reduce the amount of nuitrients in the water that is available to the algae.


sorry but i don't even remotely understand how you think adding more plants will INCREASE the amount of algae thats simply ludacris.
 
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jcardona1

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Zander_The_RBP;4298581;4298581 said:
it does not reduce the lightning intensity but it will still reduce the amount of nuitrients in the water that is available to the algae.


sorry but i don't even remotely understand how you think adding more plants will INCREASE the amount of algae thats simply ludacris.
right, but youre not understanding that it's low nutrients (carbon/ferts) that are giving you algae to begin with. by adding more plants, youre only making the effect worse.

think of it this way. you have a bunch of starving people in a room. adding more starving people isnt gonna help. they need FOOD, not more starving people. dumb comparison, but anywho :)
 

Quesenek

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Zander_The_RBP;4298581; said:
it does not reduce the lightning intensity but it will still reduce the amount of nuitrients in the water that is available to the algae.


sorry but i don't even remotely understand how you think adding more plants will INCREASE the amount of algae thats simply ludacris.
What he means is algae is caused by an imbalance in the water Co2, Ferts, Light. Adding more plants may not cause More algae but it wont help the algae problem either.

Personally I have a non Co2 injected tank right now while I'm waiting on my equipment to arrive. My plants are not growing all that well but they are not dead either they seem to just "Be" there. So No you don't need injected Co2 to have plants but they won't grow well either. Really is just a choice people have to make.
 

plantbrain

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Oh man, where to start. Jose was nice enough to stop by and ask for some pics for a redo.

CO2 is tool, it can amplify growth by 10-20X if the light and nutrients are independent, in other words, non limiting for the plant/s in question.

So we add CO2 to grow plants better, and without competition by other more aggressive plants that hog and take up CO2 much better than other species.
Plants still grow without adding CO2 gas.....they just do so much slower.

Ole and Troels did a CO2 and light experience to illustrate this:
http://www.tropica.com/advising/technical-articles/biology-of-aquatic-plants/co2-and-light.aspx

Look at figure 3.
We have 3 different light intensities and 3 different CO2 levels.
In all cases, the plant still grew.

The difference was the rates at which they grew.
Egeria densa is a very strong CO2 user, aggressive and can also use KH or the HCO3/bicarbonate whereas something like Ludwigia panatal cannoit is not as aggressive. L panatal will still grow in absence of other strong competitors or without high biomass, but when you add higher biomass/more species with different CO2 compensation and saturation points, then it becomes much harder.

This is why we have trouble growing many species in non CO2 tanks, but these same species grow just fine with good CO2.

Still, I can grow most species in a non CO2 tank, I just have to be careful about the % biomass and the species I chose if I want a wimpy CO2 demand plant, vs say an aggressive weed like Egeria.

There are many papers of how CO2 enrichment affects growth rates, typically about 10X as FAST, so 1000%. That's a lot. But as Ole andf Troels conclude, using less light reduces the rates of growth and makes CO2 management much easier and light usage much more efficenct.

So I can get more growth using less light, so I do not need to spend so much of light, and I also do not waste $$$ and energy on excess light. This cost far more than water and drives everything related to growth rates, it all starts with light, not with nutrients, and not with CO2.

I suggest folks learn how to master both CO2 and non CO2 methods, some do Excel etc, those are more similar to CO2 enrichment methods however.
We have different goals as aquarist, so no one method will be the best choice for all goals. We can look at figure 3 to see several choices to pick and chose for both light and CO2, nutrients are non limiting thus independent in the Tropica example.

Here is a non CO2 tank without a water change for 2 years:


Here is another with CO2 that makes more $$ off plants and shrimp than any other planted tank I've seen.


Different goals, but both are successful nice tanks and the fish are healthy.

I do not view CO2 enrichment as a requirement, but many seem to assume automatically it means we should add more light, this is incorrect. We want more growth, more efficient use of light and a wide selection of species to garden with, we are not looking to maximize yield and get as fast a rate of growth as possible.

Liebig's law also applies to cO2 and to light.
So we can provide CO2 and nutrients non limiting, and then reduce the light down to control the rates of growth which we desire.

Unlike nutrients or CO2, light is the most stable parameter we provide and it also has the highest cost for waste. CO2 and nutrients are cheap. So chosing light to mange the rates of growth that best suit you and your habits is a wise choice for many.

This makes CO2 dosing and nutrients far easier.
Enriched sediments also makes dosing water column ferts easier as well.
More wiggle room.

Algae are never CO2 limited in an aquarium.
Plants very often are.

BTW, there are plenty of examples in natural system where the CO2 is 20-40ppm, Bonita Matogrosso Brasil, hundred's of FW springs in Florida, Pupu springs in NZ, a dozens in China, San Marcos in TX etc etc.........
packed with fish etc.

You just need to know where to look.
Read the Tropica article carefully, then again a few times, make sure you understand what they are telling you. It should clarify many things.


Regards,
Tom Barr
 

Pyramid_Party

Fire Eel
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Aug 6, 2008
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Makes alot of sense, thanks for putting all that info into perspective. What I get thrown off with, is looking at different species of plants that have different light requirements. This makes you feel you need to have alot of lighting in order to grow most plants. For someone like me, I prefer to make things easy and cheap. But I would like to grow SOME of the better plants in addition to the easy ones like moss, ferns, and crypts. With low lighting can you grow these medium light plants? That is without any C02 supplement.
 

jcardona1

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Thanks for chiming in Tom, and nice to have you posting over here :) That was a good read, and that article from Tropica was very interesting. And their tests of growing Riccia under different conditions was a great example of the light/co2 relationship. It showed that decent growth occurs with low light and high co2. The growth was not the same as high light/high co2, but at the same time makes it more manageable. This goes along with your idea of the light-limiting growth management method.

And of course, I never get tired of seeing your 180g. It was just a nice with the carpet of HC :thumbsup:

Jose
 

plantbrain

Feeder Fish
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Jul 17, 2007
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While that study was for only 1 species, I think there is enough practical experience/evidence to suggest we can extend it out to most species.

LCP for most plants are around 15-25 micromoles, which is pretty low light comparatively speaking. I know of no plant that cannot do well at 40-50micromole range.

So that gives an indication of the lower ranges for plants, you might get away with less even, particularly if you use CO2, which is counter intuitive to most on line advice, suggesting you need MORE light if you use CO2, rather than using the same or less light if you chose to increase growth with CO2 gas.
CO2 is one of those things that gets folks all worked up and looking for ways to avoid it at all cost, generally due to ignorance/fear, not practical use. I was no different myself.

But we learn nothing by being fearful, hiding, avoiding. ;)

If you want to discuss both sides, I think it is wise to master both methods, then you can help anyone no matter which goal they chose. Not only that, you have more options for labor and management for your own tanks.

Who wants to be a one trick pony?

If you can master each of the 9 different methods on the matrix table, from low to high for both cO2/light, then you are pretty good. We can also add nutrients along with the light/CO2, but it gets a bit messy to explain 3 way interactions etc. Better to keep 2 way interactions for keeping it more simple.

CO2 and nutrients could be chosen instead and then keep light at say 50 micromoles.

You would get somewhat similar results.

I'd not worry too much about plants having different light PAR values, most plants we keep are really low light plants as a rule, and none require much more than 40 micromoles, I've grown over 300 species quite well without issue at this light range. Most ADA tanks seem to have this same range along the bottom of the sediment.

If you chose no CO2, then you have to add a bit more light to make up for less resources going to gathering light and more for getting CO2. There's a trade off in allocation of resources. Still, do you want to waste all that light to avoid CO2 enrichment? You will waste something, nutrients, light or CO2........ I waste Co2, it's cheap and a little nutrients, via water changes.

For smaller tanks Excel might be used in place of CO2.
This is about like the medium CO2, or about 1/3rd as effective as CO2 gas.
But it will help increase the light use efficiency.

So there's a few options really.

These different rates of growth and methods do not invalidate the other methods, I think many seem to get that idea. Rather, it is a continuous change in the rates of growth and trade offs in management that is what we are seeing.

This is much more holistic view on plant growth, and is easier to get the idea I think. Light => drives CO2 demand/uptake = drives nutrient uptake/demand.

Stick with that flow pattern.


Regards,
Tom Barr
 

HarleyK

Canister Man
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Aug 17, 2005
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Howdy Tom,

How'd you find MFK?

Thanks for your contribution :thumbsup:

HarleyK
 

kiid

Feeder Fish
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Nov 29, 2010
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hey dude , did u use driftwood in some of those pics ?
if u did , then how did u ensure that the water dosent change to a tea coloured water ? cause mine changes rapidly
 
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