Debunked: CO2-Myth --- See tanks without carbon dioxide fertilization

[BoiseNoise]

I have just purchased a 29-gallon bowfront tank, and I do want to try growing some plants in it, mainly because the fish that I want to put into it are said to do better with heavily planted tanks. Since the java fern in my 10-gallon is my only plant attempt so far, I'm trying to do some research about planting aquariums, but I'm just getting overwhelmed!

Is purchasing several plants and waiting to see which ones make it really the best method? I know that is in fact what I've done with my outdoor garden, but it has been an expensive and time-consuming effort! I was hoping it might be possible to come across some of the information in plant descriptions online and cut out some of the experimentation. Do you know of any good reference sources for that?

Right now my 29-gallon tank has nothing in it but a layer of fluorite sand, a layer of aquarium gravel, and very cloudy water. (It never has settled since I added the substrate three days ago.) I was hoping that putting down the fluorite would allow me to put in some plants right away, and that fish poop would help keep the plants happy once the nutrients in the fluorite wore out. I was planning to start adding fish as soon as the tank is cycled.

However . . . if I'm reading this thread correctly, if I purchase plants and put them in first, will they go through a stage of using up so much oxygen that it wouldn't be safe for fish? Should I purchase fish first, then, and add the plants one by one later?

It would be great if I really could eventually end up with enough of a balance in the tank to not have to do water changes! Do people with stable tanks that don't require water changes still do vacuum cleaning of the aquarium floors? Or does whatever falls to the bottom get used by the plants?

This tank came with a filter that uses "bio-bag" cartridges. Are those safe to use with plants?

 

[HarleyK]

Howdy,

Wow, what a great thread! Very informative. Thank you Harley for starting it.

Here to help
(or at least to make it easier and provide a diffrent perspective than mainstream)

Looks like you chose the perfect plants to go with your Africans, great to hear it's working well for you - not that there is too much choice on plants in your situation ... your fish would probably tear up or uproot everything else. And yes, Jave Fern and Anubias are notoriously slow growers. Some liquid ferts may help, but not a whole lot.

I am very much into gardening outdoors, and I know that people often tend to overfertilize plants, which can lead to weakness in the plants as well as creating more maintenance issues (because plants have to be pruned and divided more often). I am a big fan of choosing plants to meet a garden's light, soil, and water conditions, rather than trying to alter garden conditions to suit a specific plant. It makes sense , then, that there could be a parallel to this with aquarium plants.

Thanks for the perfect terrestrial analogy
Your tank sounds like it's going all right. Java fern is really hardy. I'd take the carbon out more for the fish than for the plants in your case. Since Java fern is such a slow grower, it's impact on water quality - unless you have tons of it in your tank - are minimal. You may not want to change anything since your tank seems to be running well. If you would like to modify it a bit, I'd take out the carbon and maybe try a colder water plant, such as Elodea. May or may not work with your lighting. Worth a try. As for water changes, just keep them up. There is no excuse not to do them. I only have one tank where I "deliberately neglect" water changes, i.e. do them once a year. That is a jungle of a 15 gal tank with nothing but Garra algae eaters. Every time I change water, they spawn

Should people really dip new plants in bleach before adding them to their tanks?

I've never dipped, but then, I got all sorts of nasties (hydra etc) from plants. Best to just dump them into a quarantine tank with salt content, just like you would for fish.

I'm just getting overwhelmed!

Is purchasing several plants and waiting to see which ones make it really the best method? I know that is in fact what I've done with my outdoor garden, but it has been an expensive and time-consuming effort! I was hoping it might be possible to come across some of the information in plant descriptions online and cut out some of the experimentation. Do you know of any good reference sources for that?

All right, first off, I recommend this book, by Christel Kasselmann

Might be a bit complex at first, but it describes in good detail if the plants do better in soft or hard water, in acidic or alkaline conditions.

Second, there is a safe "basic bunch" to start with - plants that do well in many different environments:

• any Cryptocoryne
• any Echinodorus
• Java fern & Java moss (for the most part)
• Anubias
• Vallisneria
• Sagittaria

Try those first, and you will most likely get several successful cultures. The substrate fert is a good start, just remember liquid ferts as well (I use Kent Marine Iron & Manganese as basic supplement for freshwater). Plants will generally never be dangerous to fish, they will even help you cycle your new tank. Do not hesitate to go crazy.

Best of luck,
HarleyK

 

[BoiseNoise]

Thanks so much! That was very helpful!

I went out and bought some plants from your "tough" list: a couple of kinds of cryptocoryne, an echinodorus, and an anubias. I couldn't find any vallisneria or sagitarria at the local stores. I also bought a water lily bulb plant, mostly because I want to eventually get a pearl gourami, and I was reading that they like some kind of surface plant cover. I may also move over a couple of tiny java fern starts from my established tank, after they've had a little more time to grow.

My plan now is to wait awhile to see what survives and what doesn't. Then, in three or four months, when I actually have fish in there and the tank is starting to be a little more established, I may order some plants online to replace whatever hasn't made it. That will also give me a little more time to do some thorough research.

So you think the carbon filter in my 10-gallon tank is also bad for my fish? I have just used that kind all along because it came with my aquarium set-up, so I thought it was necessary!

 

[JasonG75]

What did the person early in the thread mean when he said that he had lost his tank to blackbeard algae, which is what he deserved for not bleach dipping? Should people really dip new plants in bleach before adding them to their tanks?

BBA (blackBRUSH algae) is caused by Unstable CO2 levels! Nothing to do with bleach dipping. If your co2 levels are not CONSISTANT this will occur.

 

[BoiseNoise]

Have you any suggestions as to a "floating plant" that might do well with fairly low light, high temperatures, and a slightly alkaline ph? I'm trying to find one that would survive without fuss in my tank and make my pearl gourami happy!

 

[HarleyK]

Have you any suggestions as to a "floating plant" that might do well with fairly low light, high temperatures, and a slightly alkaline ph? I'm trying to find one that would survive without fuss in my tank and make my pearl gourami happy!

How about floating cork bark with Java fern and Java moss growing on it above the water line? I had that before, looked awesome if you can lower the water level enough to see it (1-2'').

HarleyK

 

[plantbrain]

Water sprite works very well, even AF rift fish leave it be.

 

[plantbrain]

Again...."run of the mill plants" lets see, what do we have in here? Dawf Sag, Vals, chain sword, duckweed(frogbit) Swords, Anubias. LOOKS wonderful btw. BUT in no means do any of these plants "require" Co2. Very lush.
"You are not going to grow some of the more demading plant in this situation"

Well, I think HC is easy to grow, but these plants will outcompete it for CO2 if there's no enrichment.

If you add CO2,m then you can keep any combo of species together.
CO2 competition in natural systems is intense between plant species, some are poor competitors, others are very aggressive.

Some also have higher saturation points than others, and light demands, so they need both more light before they can really start fixing CO2 rapidly than another species.

Something like Hydsrilla will not be very CO2 limited, but an Erio most definitely will.

Still, folks need to be careful when adding floatign plants and plants that grow up and along the surface, these obviously have access to CO2 in the air and are not the leats bit CO2 limited.

Referring to Liebig law..........this assumes that growth is being limited in some way vs a non limiting level of say CO2 in this case, it DOES NOT state that no growth occurs.

There is a massive difference between these two statements.
I'll refer to tropica's example here:
http://www.Tropica.com/advising/technical-articles/biology-of-aquatic-plants/co2-and-light.aspx


In the matrix, we can see that growth still occurs for all light and CO2 variations. What changes is the rate of growth.
In all cases for each light level, there is about 4X or more growth rates, this is true for most any submersed species. Nutrients are independent in this test as well, eg, they are non limiting.

Non CO2 methods are excellent for very good reasons; less work, less trimming and you still get some growth, just not as much. Once you add CO2, or have the plants on the surface, that changes, and many species are extremely aggressive, we cannot generalize without taking those issues into account. Species to species differences are quite large.
But that's the trade off, not that some plants do not do very well.

Poor CO2 usage causes a lot of headaches as well, but good non CO2 management can lead to much less headache also, they are different goals, so the management should also be different.

My own tanks:

I used a more emergent approach here.

Folks can scape nicely with non CO2 tanks, just many do not bother, lured by the dope that is the CO2 gas. Many lack the patience and think more is better. I think this is unfortunate.

 

[Pyramid_Party]

That plant growing out of the tank is nice. What is it?

 

[JasonG75]

This setup can be achieved WITHOUT Co2.. The debate should be more on the lines of WHAT plants require MORE co2 than others.

Vals need decent light and Nitrates, and that's really it..well other than water.

There is no ground covering (demanding Variety) in this setup. When people decide to run Co2 most of the time it is because they want to try very demanding plants.