Feedback on FW Refugium / WD Sump combo design

[SoCalDiscus]

that looks good, salsa.
what i was wondering, socal discus, is why you chose to have your fuge before your wet/dry?
speaking as one of the "reef people", haha. my sump is simple - skimmer and rock in the first compartment, rock in second compartment, refugium in third, chemicals in fourth, return in fifth. you dont want too many nutrients to get into your fuge - theyre more useful for nitrate-nitrogen gas.

Hi alcohologist, I have finished my beer, so now I can respond.

I'll do a little more thinking about it, but my initial idea was that the plants can use actual particulate from the water flow as fertilizer. I think your protein skimmer would pull these out, but they can act as nutrients for the plants. The wet/dry only needs the ammonia and nitrite in the water column to get going. Much of the particulate will settle in the plant chamber (hopefully), and reduce wear on the filter floss.

In a salt system with live rock, I'm not sure if rock=plants here, or if plants=macro algae. I'm just not sure what the process is with salt. This might shed some light on what makes sense to go first.

I know less than very little about how reef systems work, so I am sure there is a reason for putting the fuge later in the system. I have read that often copopods (sp?) etc. are kept and breed in the refugium and actually circulate up to the tank as food, so it would make sense to have the fuge towards the end of the system. Of course, it sounds like they may be getting nuked by the chemical filtration before they make the return in the system. (I'm not sure what chemical filtration would be)

If the wet dry was first, it would have to handle much more mechanical filtration. That and the water level in the fuge can be at the rim almost, but the wet/dry needs 2/3 of the bio material out. If the fuge is first, I can have more total water volume in the system.

Additional conversation tomorrow? As always, feedback on my thoughts is appreciated.

-Eric

 

[alcohologist]

in SW we use the rock as biomedia, and macroalgae are the plants.
but your point about water level in the sump clears it all up.
i wonder though, how efficient the plants are in breaking down actual particulate matter compared to the wetdry portion

 

[terd ferguson]

I have heavy stocking (see sig) and feed a lot. I added six "saltwater/brackish" mangroves to my sump. Within two months with no other changes, nitrates started to drop as measured before a waterchange. When I say drop, they went from 40 to 20. I don't do anything special for the mangroves other than provide them with about 15 hours of florescent light a day.

So, I'd say that the right plants in addition to a wet/dry (which I also run) is definately the way to go in reducing the nitrates that the wet/dry can't help with. And kogo, this is harmony. At the least, it's conveniant harmony. I don't think just having plants for a filter is very practical, although this is only a guess. I don't know anyone who is currently using this sort of system. I think SoCalDiscus said it best in this post...

My primary motivation for doing a refugium is to remove nitrates from the water which can not be done with a traditional wet/dry. So, if the wet/dry gets me to the nitrate stage, then the plants can use it... and if they clean up some ammonia and nitrite along the way, great!

Basically, I don't see any harm in having both, and the production cost for doing both is minimal. Continuing maintenence is where there could be some more work, but at this point i'm not sure how.

 

[Kogo]

I use plants only for filtration in my discus tanks (0 nitrates.. 0 ammonia). I have also been more successful (compared to some of my fellow club members) keeping locally collected killies using this method. i used to add bio media to canister filters, but saw improved water quality once i removed all bio-media (yes, I was surprised too).

The key to removing ammonia is fast growing plants as the new growth is what removes ammonia.

in the end, there is nothing wrong with using plants to supplement wet dry, my point is just that with a full refugium, the wet dry would be unnecessary.

 

[terd ferguson]

I use plants only for filtration in my discus tanks (0 nitrates.. 0 ammonia). I have also been more successful (compared to some of my fellow club members) keeping locally collected killies using this method. i used to add bio media to canister filters, but saw improved water quality once i removed all bio-media (yes, I was surprised too).

The key to removing ammonia is fast growing plants as the new growth is what removes ammonia.

in the end, there is nothing wrong with using plants to supplement wet dry, my point is just that with a full refugium, the wet dry would be unnecessary.

Your method fascinates me. Can you go into more detail?

 

[SoCalDiscus]

Hi Kogo and TF,

I'm just taking a break for a few minutes... and since you guys were talking about plant only filtration, I thought I would share my current setup. It's basically plant only, but with some submerged bioballs too. No wet/dry other than a small cascade between chamber 1 & 2.

Kogo, what is your exact setup for plants only?

Mine runs into a 30 micron sock, in chamber 1 that also contains fully submerged bioballs (just for the sake of having something in the chamber, I'm not sure if they are completely necessary)

Chamber 2 has plants, nothing too special or fast growing. Just some water sprite, and amazon swords, and some shrimp. They are in freshwater miracle mud, which is supposed to help with uptake of nitrate (i guess). I think the mud is also supposed to contain minerals that are good for the health of the fish. I think that Koi farmers use mud in a similar manor.

Chamber 3 has the return pump, and a co2 difuser. There are some other partitions in there, but nothing special. Pics are below.

I have no measurable levels of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate. I actually fertilize with nitrate as a part of my PMDD fertilizer. I would just use the same setup again, but I don't want to spend the money on the miracle mud. (And I am a little nervous about just going out somewhere with a bucket and shovel.)

-Eric

 

[terd ferguson]

Hi Kogo and TF,

I'm just taking a break for a few minutes... and since you guys were talking about plant only filtration, I thought I would share my current setup. It's basically plant only, but with some submerged bioballs too. No wet/dry other than a small cascade between chamber 1 & 2.

Kogo, what is your exact setup for plants only?

Mine runs into a 30 micron sock, in chamber 1 that also contains fully submerged bioballs (just for the sake of having something in the chamber, I'm not sure if they are completely necessary)

Chamber 2 has plants, nothing too special or fast growing. Just some water sprite, and amazon swords, and some shrimp. They are in freshwater miracle mud, which is supposed to help with uptake of nitrate (i guess). I think the mud is also supposed to contain minerals that are good for the health of the fish. I think that Koi farmers use mud in a similar manor.

Chamber 3 has the return pump, and a co2 difuser. There are some other partitions in there, but nothing special. Pics are below.

I have no measurable levels of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate. I actually fertilize with nitrate as a part of my PMDD fertilizer. I would just use the same setup again, but I don't want to spend the money on the miracle mud. (And I am a little nervous about just going out somewhere with a bucket and shovel.)

-Eric

Eric,

Thanks for sharing that setup. I've never kept Discus, but I like them a lot. My tastes lean towards the guapotes. I've always respected Discus keepers though as I understand they're not the easiest species to keep. I don't mean to derail your thread, but honestly, I've never heard of a plant only filtration system and am very curious as to how a successful one is set up.

And while we're sharing pics, here's how I've got my mangroves in my wet/dry...

Cheers,
Kevin

 

[Danger_Chicken]

Eric,

Thanks for sharing that setup. I've never kept Discus, but I like them a lot. My tastes lean towards the guapotes. I've always respected Discus keepers though as I understand they're not the easiest species to keep. I don't mean to derail your thread, but honestly, I've never heard of a plant only filtration system and am very curious as to how a successful one is set up.

And while we're sharing pics, here's how I've got my mangroves in my wet/dry...

Cheers,
Kevin

To further derail this increasingly interesting thread. Can you give more detail on the mangrove setup?

 

[terd ferguson]

To further derail this increasingly interesting thread. Can you give more detail on the mangrove setup?

Sure, I hope SoCalDiscus doesn't mind.

I bought six mangroves from my local reefer shop. I took a piece of Dow insulation foam (like we use under our tanks) and cut/poked six holes in it. I stuck the mangroves through these holes and floated this in my sump. I've found that they like a lot of light directed at the roots. I don't feed them with any fertilizers and don't use special lighting (florescent bulb). They are awesome at removing nitrates. They went from 40 on water change day to 20 in 2 to 3 months with no other changes besides adding more fishes.

Here's some more pics...

I didn't acclimatize them in any way. They went straight from the salt water tank at the reefer shop into my fresh water sump. I was told by many that these probably wouldn't live in fresh water, including the reefer shop guy. But I'm retarded like that. I was told the same thing about my stocking.


***EDITED TO ADD***
If you look closely at the roots in the first photo, you'll see smaller "hair" type "rootlets". This is what you want to see to know if they're healthy. Dropping or browning leaves shouldn't be a worry if they're replaced by new leaves. They seem to like being deep with only the top few inches above water (lower than in my photos). I paid $6 each at my local reefer shop. I give them about 15 hours of light a day with a clip on type dome shop light with one of those spiral florescent bulbs. I wish I could cram more of them in my sump. Also, you may have to wait til the end of July to get good trees. As I understand it, only the fruits (unrooted trees) are being harvested this time of year.

***EDITED AGAIN TO ADD***
These have been in my sump now for three months and are still very much alive.

 

[Danger_Chicken]

thanks I may have to take a look at this. Do you have to trim them often?