Hello everyone! ...I'm in need of some help again ...I am in dort of a panic here...my flowerhorn is flipping and swimming very erratically. ..it appears hard for him to maintain. ..an upright swim...This morning before work I noticed for the first time that he was sleeping upside down...This is freaking me out. ..I'm leaving work early to help him...I'm am going to put him in a 20gal quarantine tank...I'm need to know the epsom salt remedy. ..and maybe some strong drugs to add... (mela and pima fix) are not helping. ..Please offer some suggestions. ..ands a course of action needs to be chosen quickly.
Flowerhorn bloating
- Thread starter tysonb292
- Start date
Swim Bladder Disorder
Symptoms:
Limited signs of bloat though usually no physical damage is found, fish struggles to balance itself sometimes going belly up due to lack of proper buoyancy
Causes:
Often indigestion with goldfish, blood parrot cichlid and balloon strains becoming more vulnerable to the disorder rather than most fish species, bacterial infections, damaged swim bladder, the use of floating foods which when ingested allows entry of air to the digestive system, congenital or development causes, birth defect, sudden trauma from sudden changes in water conditions or failure to acclimate the fish properly.
Causes can be difficult to determine although possible causes are often leaned on the use of floating foods, indigestion and damaged organs by assumption. Genetics also play a role in this issue. It has long been argued that floating foods should never be used at all especially for goldfish. It is in the best interest of the safety of the fish that sinking foods be used instead of floating foods or try to squish the foods until they sink.
Updated version: The ongoing debate regarding the use of floating foods has been stretched further that the use of foods that primarily composed of starch-based ingredients has been pointed out. After further analysis by those who keep goldfish, it was found that the bacteria lining the digestive systems are also one of the culprits contributing to buoyancy issues. Although the goldfish has no enzymes to digest the starch, the bacteria make up for the lack of enzymes but in return, produce gas which when trapped in the GI tract, can cause buoyancy issues. Most fish get "floaty" despite the switching of food products from floating to sinking and this can easily be pointed to the starch ingredients found in the food.
Treatment:
1. High fiber diet and fasting.
Switch to foods with high fiber content. In this case, most fish fail to expel wastes due to the foods clogging the digestive system especially with air trapped inside. Fasting for a few days or weeks also helps dislodge the foods from the GI tract.
2. Antibiotics
This one is very tricky. There is no telling how the fish became "floaty" and it could be bacteria or virus causing the issue if the food diet is not an issue. Administer only if you are sure this is the issue. A lot of viral infections are resistant to treatments and in this case, the fish may need to be destroyed.
3. Gel Foods and Acidophilus
It has already been pointed out in most cases starch is the common cause of buoyancy issues with goldfish. Despite it being digested by the bacteria, the bacteria also produce gas and while this is not an issue with streamline bodied fish, most fish have a rather compressed GI tract where the air is easily trapped. The use of Lactobacilli acidophilus through incorporating it in gel foods help quell the gas trapped in the GI tract. It is likewise recommended that starch based foods be avoided completely and switch to other foods that do not contain starch such as yeast, corn, etc.
Unfortunately, there is no cure for most cases where this disorder is involved although in some cases, the fish can recover depending on the cause of the disorder. Fish that suffer from this disorder due to sudden trauma from improper acclimation usually will never recover at all. In this case, it is recommended to destroy the fish.
Symptoms:
Limited signs of bloat though usually no physical damage is found, fish struggles to balance itself sometimes going belly up due to lack of proper buoyancy
Causes:
Often indigestion with goldfish, blood parrot cichlid and balloon strains becoming more vulnerable to the disorder rather than most fish species, bacterial infections, damaged swim bladder, the use of floating foods which when ingested allows entry of air to the digestive system, congenital or development causes, birth defect, sudden trauma from sudden changes in water conditions or failure to acclimate the fish properly.
Causes can be difficult to determine although possible causes are often leaned on the use of floating foods, indigestion and damaged organs by assumption. Genetics also play a role in this issue. It has long been argued that floating foods should never be used at all especially for goldfish. It is in the best interest of the safety of the fish that sinking foods be used instead of floating foods or try to squish the foods until they sink.
Updated version: The ongoing debate regarding the use of floating foods has been stretched further that the use of foods that primarily composed of starch-based ingredients has been pointed out. After further analysis by those who keep goldfish, it was found that the bacteria lining the digestive systems are also one of the culprits contributing to buoyancy issues. Although the goldfish has no enzymes to digest the starch, the bacteria make up for the lack of enzymes but in return, produce gas which when trapped in the GI tract, can cause buoyancy issues. Most fish get "floaty" despite the switching of food products from floating to sinking and this can easily be pointed to the starch ingredients found in the food.
Treatment:
1. High fiber diet and fasting.
Switch to foods with high fiber content. In this case, most fish fail to expel wastes due to the foods clogging the digestive system especially with air trapped inside. Fasting for a few days or weeks also helps dislodge the foods from the GI tract.
2. Antibiotics
This one is very tricky. There is no telling how the fish became "floaty" and it could be bacteria or virus causing the issue if the food diet is not an issue. Administer only if you are sure this is the issue. A lot of viral infections are resistant to treatments and in this case, the fish may need to be destroyed.
3. Gel Foods and Acidophilus
It has already been pointed out in most cases starch is the common cause of buoyancy issues with goldfish. Despite it being digested by the bacteria, the bacteria also produce gas and while this is not an issue with streamline bodied fish, most fish have a rather compressed GI tract where the air is easily trapped. The use of Lactobacilli acidophilus through incorporating it in gel foods help quell the gas trapped in the GI tract. It is likewise recommended that starch based foods be avoided completely and switch to other foods that do not contain starch such as yeast, corn, etc.
Unfortunately, there is no cure for most cases where this disorder is involved although in some cases, the fish can recover depending on the cause of the disorder. Fish that suffer from this disorder due to sudden trauma from improper acclimation usually will never recover at all. In this case, it is recommended to destroy the fish.
When my thai silk had trouble staying balanced animal guy advised me not to feed, add parasite guard, and do more water changes, plus I added Epsom salt to help him poop. Worked great for me but yours sounds to be n worst condition then mine. U may need to use a stronger parasite treatment and hope. Good luck hope he gets better.
Floating foods is a non-issue with flowerhorns, unless it's a short body fish. Even then it doesn't compare with the screwed up compressed GI tract of fancy goldfish. See below for how to best proceed ......
Dr. Erik Johnson, a world renowned koi & goldfish veterinarian discusses this topic in the following link. http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/faq.html
My fish has a swollen / bloated abdomen?
This is a common but difficult problem and typifies the problems involved in fish disease diagnosis. Abdominal swelling is not a disease - but a clinical sign of several possible health problems. Because an internal disorder is involved, in most cases it isn't possible to say what the problem was until a post mortem is carried out. The most common causes are:
A genetic disorder that usually shows as the fish grows older. In the early stages this seems to cause little discomfort for the fish and it will lead a normal life for some time - often several years.
A tumour or growth. The only option in this situation is surgery, which clearly requires professional help. However, the survival rate of such procedures is very low as this is still very much an experimental procedure.
Systemic bacterial infection, which is usually accompanied by raised scales, protruding eyeballs and sometimes reddening / inflammation on the body. If caught early enough this may respond to a course of antibiotic injections. Bath treatments are rarely successful See bacterial infections
Viral diseases: Much the same signs as bacterial infections but no cure
Internal organ disease - such as heart problems- leading to an accumulation of fluid in the abdominal cavity. This leads to a balloon-shaped swelling and the abdomen feels very soft and sqidgy - unlike a tumour which tends to feel hard. No cures, and heart transplants are just not on.
Intestinal blockage / constipation: This is more usually associated with loss of equilibrium, but in some severe cases it can lead to swelling. The only possible treatment is either try to feed the fish a few frozen peas, which act as a laxative, or else try baths in Epsom salts (70g / litre for 5 minutes) which has the same effect. If the condition is advanced, the success rate is likely to be poor Could indicate intestinal parasites. Making wet mounts of faeces for microscopic examination may assist diagnosis.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My fish are upside-down/ can't swim
This is a common problem whereby fish lose their equilibrium and are unable to maintain their position. This can result in the fish swimming awkwardly, laying upside-down either on the bottom or top of the water, or unable to maintain a horizontal position in the water. This is often attributed to swim-bladder problems and indeed this is the most common cause of loss of equilibrium. The swim-bladder is an air-filled sac laying just under the backbone at the top of the abdominal cavity. By inflating / deflating the swim-bladder, the fish can adjust its position in the water and maintain neutral buoyancy.
The swim-bladder can be affected by bacterial or viral diseases. In addition the swim-bladder may malfunction, leading to over or under inflation. Clearly anything which affects the proper functioning of the swim-bladder will also affect the fish's equilibrium.
However, before diagnosing all equilibrium problems as swim-bladder disease, we should be aware that there are other conditions which can cause buoyancy problems. Disease in other organs such as kidneys and intestines for example can also cause problems. This can happen if there is any swelling of the affected organs leading to either a change in organ density or pressure being put on the swim-bladder. This is often a problem with fancy goldfish whose abdominal cavity is tightly packed.
Treatment is difficult, mainly because it is virtually impossible to diagnose the cause and secondly there are only a few conditions that will respond to treatment. It is always worth considering a course of antibiotic injections in case a bacterial infection is involved. An attempt should be made to see whether the fish is defecating, in case the problem is being caused by an intestinal blockage. If this is suspected it is worth either trying to feed the fish a few frozen peas, which act as a laxative, or else try baths in Epsom salts (70g / litre for 5 minutes) which has the same effect.
If these treatments do not work, there is little else that can be done. There is some work being carried out on exploratory surgery, but there are very few veterinarians undertaking this "cutting edge" procedure.
There are a few reports of fish recovering from balance problems, so it is worth giving the fish some time. One report suggested "wedging" the fish upright between two objects was helpful. If there is no sign of recovery after 7-10 days, the kindest thing is to euthanase the fish.
...............................
HTH
Dr. Erik Johnson, a world renowned koi & goldfish veterinarian discusses this topic in the following link. http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/faq.html
My fish has a swollen / bloated abdomen?
This is a common but difficult problem and typifies the problems involved in fish disease diagnosis. Abdominal swelling is not a disease - but a clinical sign of several possible health problems. Because an internal disorder is involved, in most cases it isn't possible to say what the problem was until a post mortem is carried out. The most common causes are:
A genetic disorder that usually shows as the fish grows older. In the early stages this seems to cause little discomfort for the fish and it will lead a normal life for some time - often several years.
A tumour or growth. The only option in this situation is surgery, which clearly requires professional help. However, the survival rate of such procedures is very low as this is still very much an experimental procedure.
Systemic bacterial infection, which is usually accompanied by raised scales, protruding eyeballs and sometimes reddening / inflammation on the body. If caught early enough this may respond to a course of antibiotic injections. Bath treatments are rarely successful See bacterial infections
Viral diseases: Much the same signs as bacterial infections but no cure
Internal organ disease - such as heart problems- leading to an accumulation of fluid in the abdominal cavity. This leads to a balloon-shaped swelling and the abdomen feels very soft and sqidgy - unlike a tumour which tends to feel hard. No cures, and heart transplants are just not on.
Intestinal blockage / constipation: This is more usually associated with loss of equilibrium, but in some severe cases it can lead to swelling. The only possible treatment is either try to feed the fish a few frozen peas, which act as a laxative, or else try baths in Epsom salts (70g / litre for 5 minutes) which has the same effect. If the condition is advanced, the success rate is likely to be poor Could indicate intestinal parasites. Making wet mounts of faeces for microscopic examination may assist diagnosis.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My fish are upside-down/ can't swim
This is a common problem whereby fish lose their equilibrium and are unable to maintain their position. This can result in the fish swimming awkwardly, laying upside-down either on the bottom or top of the water, or unable to maintain a horizontal position in the water. This is often attributed to swim-bladder problems and indeed this is the most common cause of loss of equilibrium. The swim-bladder is an air-filled sac laying just under the backbone at the top of the abdominal cavity. By inflating / deflating the swim-bladder, the fish can adjust its position in the water and maintain neutral buoyancy.
The swim-bladder can be affected by bacterial or viral diseases. In addition the swim-bladder may malfunction, leading to over or under inflation. Clearly anything which affects the proper functioning of the swim-bladder will also affect the fish's equilibrium.
However, before diagnosing all equilibrium problems as swim-bladder disease, we should be aware that there are other conditions which can cause buoyancy problems. Disease in other organs such as kidneys and intestines for example can also cause problems. This can happen if there is any swelling of the affected organs leading to either a change in organ density or pressure being put on the swim-bladder. This is often a problem with fancy goldfish whose abdominal cavity is tightly packed.
Treatment is difficult, mainly because it is virtually impossible to diagnose the cause and secondly there are only a few conditions that will respond to treatment. It is always worth considering a course of antibiotic injections in case a bacterial infection is involved. An attempt should be made to see whether the fish is defecating, in case the problem is being caused by an intestinal blockage. If this is suspected it is worth either trying to feed the fish a few frozen peas, which act as a laxative, or else try baths in Epsom salts (70g / litre for 5 minutes) which has the same effect.
If these treatments do not work, there is little else that can be done. There is some work being carried out on exploratory surgery, but there are very few veterinarians undertaking this "cutting edge" procedure.
There are a few reports of fish recovering from balance problems, so it is worth giving the fish some time. One report suggested "wedging" the fish upright between two objects was helpful. If there is no sign of recovery after 7-10 days, the kindest thing is to euthanase the fish.
...............................
HTH
Just saw that it's in a 20 gallon QT tank .....
Dr. Edward J Noga suggests:
1. Bath
a. Add 19mg/gallon and treat for 3 hours. Repeat every other day for 3 treatments.
2. Prolonged Immersion
a. Add 25mg/gallon and treat once daily for a total of 3 times.
b. Add 95mg/gallon and treat every other day for three days.
3. via feed
25 mg/Kg of body weight/day for 5 to 10 days, or 100 mg/kg of body weight for 3 days. Retreat once if required.
Dr. Edward J. Noga, MS, DVM, is a highly respected professor of aquatic medicine and immunology, that has been published approx 150 times in related papers/journals. His lab at NC State University specializes in the study of infectious diseases of finfish and shellfish. His book, Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment is the go to "health" book for every serious fish keeper and aquatic DVM on the planet.
To which I will add, also add epsom salt (non fragrance/soap/etc) - just straight magnesium sulfate which can be purchased at Walmart etc. In a 20 gallon tank I would add approx 1 to 3 teaspoons per 5 gallons.
Dr. Edward J Noga suggests:
1. Bath
a. Add 19mg/gallon and treat for 3 hours. Repeat every other day for 3 treatments.
2. Prolonged Immersion
a. Add 25mg/gallon and treat once daily for a total of 3 times.
b. Add 95mg/gallon and treat every other day for three days.
3. via feed
25 mg/Kg of body weight/day for 5 to 10 days, or 100 mg/kg of body weight for 3 days. Retreat once if required.
Dr. Edward J. Noga, MS, DVM, is a highly respected professor of aquatic medicine and immunology, that has been published approx 150 times in related papers/journals. His lab at NC State University specializes in the study of infectious diseases of finfish and shellfish. His book, Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment is the go to "health" book for every serious fish keeper and aquatic DVM on the planet.
To which I will add, also add epsom salt (non fragrance/soap/etc) - just straight magnesium sulfate which can be purchased at Walmart etc. In a 20 gallon tank I would add approx 1 to 3 teaspoons per 5 gallons.