Food for festae fry
- Thread starter wild bill
- Start date
i do not know all the ins and outs of bloat. im just saying it doesnt hurt to add extra care for these festae considering so many people have experienced it. just monitor the amount your feeding and what your feeding. just something to think about.
IMO the vast majority of bloat cases have little or nothing to do with the diet, especially in juvenile fish. No need to feed a carnivorous fish nothing but spirulina, nor does one want to limit amino acid (protein) intake with a fry/juvenile. To do so will simply limit growth & overall health in the fish.
I have raised some of the most bloat prone fish on the planet (Tropheus sp., Tropheops macrophthalmus, etc) on diets of 50+% protein, 10% fat, and never lost a fish to bloat. There are many other stress factors that can take place in a glass tank, and it is typically those stress factors that trigger an outbreak of internal pathogens, usually Spironucleus, that ultimately result in bloat.
If/when bloat is caused by diet, it's often the result of fish being overfed by MASSIVE amounts, and/or the food contains a very large inclusion rate of grains & grain byproducts. In the case of the latter, high grain content is known to cause intestinal blockage due to its poor digestibility, which in turn results in "bloat". Protein is not the problem, for the most part fish simply excrete excess amino acids. The whole protein thing is nothing more than a myth that has been perpetuated in this hobby by those that don't have a clear understanding of how a fish assimilates protein. The only time that I limit protein intake is when the fish begins to gain size. Then I shift them over to more of a maintenance diet, just as one would with a puppy as they begin to mature. Young fry & juvies have high metabolic rates, which require high energy fuel on a constant basis.
If you limit that, you will limit growth.
When feeding low cost generic foods with excessive grain content, not only does much of what goes in, come right back out the other end, if too much is consumed at once these types of feeds can also cause serious gastrointestinal issues in some species, such as those that are prone to float or bloat. (eg. fancy goldfish, Tropheus moorii, beani's, etc)
Also, there is a BIG difference between terrestrial based plant matter (such as soybeans, corn, wheat middlings etc) and plant matter from aquatic sources, such as algae meal, spirulina, and various micro-algae. The former is what many hobbyists have come to refer as "cheap fillers".
A classic example of how/why bloat can take place in a tank of juvenile fish: In an attempt to get massive (monster) gains hobbyist power feeds their juvenile fish, in doing so bacteria, organic waste, etc builds up quickly in the system, and as fish gain size stress levels increase from aggression. As the fry begin to gain size over a few months massive regular water changes begin to slide, and now you have a breeding ground of bacteria, and stress levels that are climbing every day. The perfect scenario for an outbreak of spironucleus aka bloat.
The direct cause of the bloat wasn't the food, it was a case of operator error. Feeding fish is part art, and part science, feed a high quality highly digestible food, and throw as much clean water at your fish as humanly possible, and bloat will become a non issue.
I have raised some of the most bloat prone fish on the planet (Tropheus sp., Tropheops macrophthalmus, etc) on diets of 50+% protein, 10% fat, and never lost a fish to bloat. There are many other stress factors that can take place in a glass tank, and it is typically those stress factors that trigger an outbreak of internal pathogens, usually Spironucleus, that ultimately result in bloat.
If/when bloat is caused by diet, it's often the result of fish being overfed by MASSIVE amounts, and/or the food contains a very large inclusion rate of grains & grain byproducts. In the case of the latter, high grain content is known to cause intestinal blockage due to its poor digestibility, which in turn results in "bloat". Protein is not the problem, for the most part fish simply excrete excess amino acids. The whole protein thing is nothing more than a myth that has been perpetuated in this hobby by those that don't have a clear understanding of how a fish assimilates protein. The only time that I limit protein intake is when the fish begins to gain size. Then I shift them over to more of a maintenance diet, just as one would with a puppy as they begin to mature. Young fry & juvies have high metabolic rates, which require high energy fuel on a constant basis.
If you limit that, you will limit growth.
When feeding low cost generic foods with excessive grain content, not only does much of what goes in, come right back out the other end, if too much is consumed at once these types of feeds can also cause serious gastrointestinal issues in some species, such as those that are prone to float or bloat. (eg. fancy goldfish, Tropheus moorii, beani's, etc)
Also, there is a BIG difference between terrestrial based plant matter (such as soybeans, corn, wheat middlings etc) and plant matter from aquatic sources, such as algae meal, spirulina, and various micro-algae. The former is what many hobbyists have come to refer as "cheap fillers".
A classic example of how/why bloat can take place in a tank of juvenile fish: In an attempt to get massive (monster) gains hobbyist power feeds their juvenile fish, in doing so bacteria, organic waste, etc builds up quickly in the system, and as fish gain size stress levels increase from aggression. As the fry begin to gain size over a few months massive regular water changes begin to slide, and now you have a breeding ground of bacteria, and stress levels that are climbing every day. The perfect scenario for an outbreak of spironucleus aka bloat.
The direct cause of the bloat wasn't the food, it was a case of operator error. Feeding fish is part art, and part science, feed a high quality highly digestible food, and throw as much clean water at your fish as humanly possible, and bloat will become a non issue.
RD.;4863171; said:
Well said bro! I completely agree and i havent raised tropheus but i have raised beani, Haitiensis, Istlanum ( the bloat guys) lol and have found the same as you. and funny thing is there has been a lot of threads posted about bloat prvention, or curing bloat, or bloat in general and they all have same concerns or same comments that argue the protien as intitial bloat starters. I believe it has everything to do with how the fish are cared for mostly and the possibility that alot of these fish that have bloat issues comes from a riverine and need current and higher oxygen which is created by the current and once us hobbiest obtain them we dont all think about that and our tanks arent as beefed up on current. or other things as simple as that play into part. But when raising sought after species it is a great idea to keep a special eye on them and possibly document handling and care if its your first time so you have something to compare to
I posted the following on another forum several yrs ago & saved it for a rainy day. Some of the info below has already been covered, some hasn't.
IMO one of the best reads on this subject can be found in the link below, and while it's geared towards Discus, the info can be applied to most species of tropical fish.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/spironucleus.php
The most important portion of that article is the following;
In simple terms, in 'healthy discus' S. vortens is commonly found in the flagellated stage in the lumen of the upper intestine, where it remains, controlled by the immune system of the fish. In stressed discus, the immune system is placed under greater strain, and the organism, in theory, multiplies unchecked causing considerable localised damage. Once the damage is severe enough the intestinal lining is penetrated and the S. vortens enters the blood causing systemic and organ infections. In regards to stress, I have stated elsewhere (Stewart, 2001) that stressors can include: low oxygen levels, high nitrite levels, comparatively high (or low) water temperatures, rough handling, mechanical injury, overcrowding, water of inappropriate hardness etc (see Francis-Floyd, 1997; Rottmann, Francis-Floyd, Durborow, 1992 for more information on stress and its effects and management).
What that article clearly describes is what a major role STRESS plays in triggering outbreaks of these pathogens. The more stressors that one can remove from their set ups, the less chance there will be of having sick fish, including bloat.
IMO almost all, if not all ailments in fish are triggered by stress, and one needs to learn early on what each set ups limitations are. If/when we attempt to go beyond those limitations, we risk the health of everything within our system. Some hobbyists seem to learn this straight away, others never seem to catch on.
Sometimes when these ailments surface it seems to appear that there is no reason at all. IMHO the reason for this is due to the fact that all fish are individuals, and while they can have individual behaviours & temperaments, I also believe that each fish can only tolerate individual levels of stress before they weaken enough to become susceptible to these stressors. You'll typically find that the same holds true for most organisms on our planet, including humans.
Just as one can have genetic runts, I also believe that one can end up with fish that have genetically weak immune systems, or at least weaker than normal. This would explain why one fish in a tank full of (any species), can end up with fungus, or pop eye, or HITH, or whatever, while other fish in the same tank have no health issues whatsoever. Or why some fish survive an ammonia spike, while others drop like flies. Or why only one female in a tank full of breeders ends up egg bound, while no other females ever exhibit this problem.
In the wild Mother Nature has a way of dealing with fish such as this, but what if some of these fish are collected, and exported? How many people cull WC fish? Most breeders will do almost anything to save a prized egg bound female, yet in the wild that fish would either pull through on its own, or else .....
Overuse of medication can also cause an immune system to become severely compromised. Many exporters & importers dose the fish with meds shortly after they are collected or received, again with tranqs when the fish are shipped, while many hobbyists dose the fish yet again with meds when they arrive to their new home. (as a precautionary step)
Already the fish have the odds stacked against them, and all it takes is one single weak link to start a snowball effect in ones tank.
Perhaps in some cases, even when we do everything right, it ultimately all boils down to nothing more than a roll of the dice?
With regards to protein - the only way that protein can cause gastrointestinal issues in a fish, is if the source of the protein is poorly digestible, which in most cases is caused from using excessive grains & grain-byproducts in the formula. It has nothing to do with HIGH protein content, as the vast majority of excess protein in a diet will simply be excreted by the fish. Fish simply excrete excess protein, it doesn't build up in dangerous levels as excess fat can, so you're certainly not harming a herbivore IF you feed a slightly higher protein content than what that fish would typically eat in the wild, unless as previously stated that source of protein consists of difficult to digest forms of protein, such as some of the grain by-products used in various formulas.
The only other negative in feeding a diet that is excessive in protein, is that it can cause less than ideal growth in some species, as the excess protein requires a large amount of energy to deaminate in the liver and excrete any excess absorbed amino acids. Neither of these situations will cause bloat in a fish.
The biggest problem is that most people don't truly understand what causes bloat, and believe that diet is always the trigger, when that couldn't be further from the truth. While in unison the nodding heads on various online forums only perpetuate this myth.
IMO the vast majority of bloat cases with herbivorous cichlids has nothing to do with the diet, but with other stressful factors, such as aggression, lack of shelter, water quality, etc., which in turn can cause a 'normal' amount of intestinal pathogens to proliferate to harmful numbers. In some cases it may be nothing more than survival of the fittest, which is what takes place in wild every day. A fish with a weak immune system will obviously be the first fish to succumb to illness if/when stress becomes a factor, no matter what you feed them.
FYI - Stuart Grant feeds a generic fish meal based bulk flake to every last herbivore that's collected in Malawi, as do all of the exporters on Lake Tanganyika. A friend of mine spent 5 months working on Lake Malawi for Stuart Grant, and was responsible for the daily feeding of all fish. None of these fish ever saw a veggie based food, and he never once saw or heard of a case of bloat in the 5 months that he was there.
An exporter on Lake Tanganyika that I know told me the same thing, never once a case of bloat (and he specializes in Tropheus sp., which are known for being bloat magnets) and he too feeds a fish meal based food. Some of those tropheus were held in vats for 6 months before being exported, so there was plenty of time for bloat to strike.
The difference between their tanks and yours ........... they have massive concrete vats, a large amount of fish, fresh water being pumped in & out 24/7, and no territory to fight over. Stress from aggression is almost non existent, ditto to stress from water quality, and there are usually so many fish that no one fish will ever become a target for more than a few seconds at a time.
My advice is this, forget about the protein % on a label, and pay close attention to the actual source of that protein. Also use a food that is low in dietary fat (7-10% for fry juvies, 4-6% for adult fish) and feed sparingly. Many hobbyists tend to overfeed, which not only creates fat unhealthy fish, but also lowers the overall quality of the water.
HTH
IMO one of the best reads on this subject can be found in the link below, and while it's geared towards Discus, the info can be applied to most species of tropical fish.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/spironucleus.php
The most important portion of that article is the following;
In simple terms, in 'healthy discus' S. vortens is commonly found in the flagellated stage in the lumen of the upper intestine, where it remains, controlled by the immune system of the fish. In stressed discus, the immune system is placed under greater strain, and the organism, in theory, multiplies unchecked causing considerable localised damage. Once the damage is severe enough the intestinal lining is penetrated and the S. vortens enters the blood causing systemic and organ infections. In regards to stress, I have stated elsewhere (Stewart, 2001) that stressors can include: low oxygen levels, high nitrite levels, comparatively high (or low) water temperatures, rough handling, mechanical injury, overcrowding, water of inappropriate hardness etc (see Francis-Floyd, 1997; Rottmann, Francis-Floyd, Durborow, 1992 for more information on stress and its effects and management).
What that article clearly describes is what a major role STRESS plays in triggering outbreaks of these pathogens. The more stressors that one can remove from their set ups, the less chance there will be of having sick fish, including bloat.
IMO almost all, if not all ailments in fish are triggered by stress, and one needs to learn early on what each set ups limitations are. If/when we attempt to go beyond those limitations, we risk the health of everything within our system. Some hobbyists seem to learn this straight away, others never seem to catch on.
Sometimes when these ailments surface it seems to appear that there is no reason at all. IMHO the reason for this is due to the fact that all fish are individuals, and while they can have individual behaviours & temperaments, I also believe that each fish can only tolerate individual levels of stress before they weaken enough to become susceptible to these stressors. You'll typically find that the same holds true for most organisms on our planet, including humans.
Just as one can have genetic runts, I also believe that one can end up with fish that have genetically weak immune systems, or at least weaker than normal. This would explain why one fish in a tank full of (any species), can end up with fungus, or pop eye, or HITH, or whatever, while other fish in the same tank have no health issues whatsoever. Or why some fish survive an ammonia spike, while others drop like flies. Or why only one female in a tank full of breeders ends up egg bound, while no other females ever exhibit this problem.
In the wild Mother Nature has a way of dealing with fish such as this, but what if some of these fish are collected, and exported? How many people cull WC fish? Most breeders will do almost anything to save a prized egg bound female, yet in the wild that fish would either pull through on its own, or else .....
Overuse of medication can also cause an immune system to become severely compromised. Many exporters & importers dose the fish with meds shortly after they are collected or received, again with tranqs when the fish are shipped, while many hobbyists dose the fish yet again with meds when they arrive to their new home. (as a precautionary step)
Already the fish have the odds stacked against them, and all it takes is one single weak link to start a snowball effect in ones tank.
Perhaps in some cases, even when we do everything right, it ultimately all boils down to nothing more than a roll of the dice?
With regards to protein - the only way that protein can cause gastrointestinal issues in a fish, is if the source of the protein is poorly digestible, which in most cases is caused from using excessive grains & grain-byproducts in the formula. It has nothing to do with HIGH protein content, as the vast majority of excess protein in a diet will simply be excreted by the fish. Fish simply excrete excess protein, it doesn't build up in dangerous levels as excess fat can, so you're certainly not harming a herbivore IF you feed a slightly higher protein content than what that fish would typically eat in the wild, unless as previously stated that source of protein consists of difficult to digest forms of protein, such as some of the grain by-products used in various formulas.
The only other negative in feeding a diet that is excessive in protein, is that it can cause less than ideal growth in some species, as the excess protein requires a large amount of energy to deaminate in the liver and excrete any excess absorbed amino acids. Neither of these situations will cause bloat in a fish.
The biggest problem is that most people don't truly understand what causes bloat, and believe that diet is always the trigger, when that couldn't be further from the truth. While in unison the nodding heads on various online forums only perpetuate this myth.
IMO the vast majority of bloat cases with herbivorous cichlids has nothing to do with the diet, but with other stressful factors, such as aggression, lack of shelter, water quality, etc., which in turn can cause a 'normal' amount of intestinal pathogens to proliferate to harmful numbers. In some cases it may be nothing more than survival of the fittest, which is what takes place in wild every day. A fish with a weak immune system will obviously be the first fish to succumb to illness if/when stress becomes a factor, no matter what you feed them.
FYI - Stuart Grant feeds a generic fish meal based bulk flake to every last herbivore that's collected in Malawi, as do all of the exporters on Lake Tanganyika. A friend of mine spent 5 months working on Lake Malawi for Stuart Grant, and was responsible for the daily feeding of all fish. None of these fish ever saw a veggie based food, and he never once saw or heard of a case of bloat in the 5 months that he was there.
An exporter on Lake Tanganyika that I know told me the same thing, never once a case of bloat (and he specializes in Tropheus sp., which are known for being bloat magnets) and he too feeds a fish meal based food. Some of those tropheus were held in vats for 6 months before being exported, so there was plenty of time for bloat to strike.
The difference between their tanks and yours ........... they have massive concrete vats, a large amount of fish, fresh water being pumped in & out 24/7, and no territory to fight over. Stress from aggression is almost non existent, ditto to stress from water quality, and there are usually so many fish that no one fish will ever become a target for more than a few seconds at a time.
My advice is this, forget about the protein % on a label, and pay close attention to the actual source of that protein. Also use a food that is low in dietary fat (7-10% for fry juvies, 4-6% for adult fish) and feed sparingly. Many hobbyists tend to overfeed, which not only creates fat unhealthy fish, but also lowers the overall quality of the water.
HTH
Again, Well said and no matter what is said or how many time its said, there will still be issues with bloat lol and it will be the same issues and will most likely come from the same type of people/hobbiests. I find that fish keeping isnt as easy as it looks the more expirience one as the easier it is for them. but there is alot more to keeping fish than just putting them into a tank and feeding them. like said before each fish has its own health and personality issues just like humans regardless of sex or species. and may need a lil more attention than others.
and no matter what is said or how many time its said, there will still be issues with bloat lol and it will be the same issues and will most likely come from the same type of people/hobbiests. I find that fish keeping isnt as easy as it looks the more expirience one as the easier it is for them. but there is alot more to keeping fish than just putting them into a tank and feeding them. like said before each fish has its own health and personality issues just like humans regardless of sex or species. and may need a lil more attention than others.
Regarding diet and health we have found that hear at our zoo animals do better on a balanced diet. With our carnivours we have found feeding a whole carcass rathether than just meat and some bone has let these animals enjoy healthy lives with little or no medication needed. Feeding like this gives them their protien,calcium and minerals via bone and intestineand stomach contents and their fibre via the hair. So I would imagine fish would be much the same to much of anyone thing is never good for anyone. Like the way you explained it all there R.D. keep up your informative work.
thank you for so much information on this subject. ive never had a problem while raising fry in any of my tanks until i got my festae. just reading through forums i was misinformed that it was bloat while obviously it was another issue. maybe you can answer why my festae fry failed? 100 gallon acrylic tank, 2 ac110s, 1 fx3. temp set at 80. ph 8 fed brine, blood worms, crushed flake, fed morning, and night, sometimes durring the day. fish always looked perfect. woke up 1 day there bellies were swole "extremely bloated" guessing where the bloat title gets thrown around. gasping for air 1/2 were dead others dying a couple per hour. there was a total of 40 fish ranging from 3/4-1 inch. tested my waters, everything still the same, no spikes, temps same... a further explanation could further help us all in raising these fry. ive raised haits as well and never had this problem and ive read they are the worst when it comes to bloat. sorry for the thread hijack. maybe we should move this to a new thread and have a bloat sticky!
Hmm.. The only thing that differs from me is the ph which I keep at 7, and the brine shrimp and bloodworms. I quit feeding brine shrimp cause it has caused bloat like issues with my fry. I do feed the decapsulated brine shrimp and that works great. I also quit feedin anything frozen other than krill. I changed from frozen blood worms to live black worms. Not really sure in your case, it could have something to do with the genetics of that particular batch of fry you have. I've noticed that was the case with my haitiensis. After I bought a group from conkel, I never had issues and I will only buy haits from him or his bloodlines only until some wilds are brought in to strengthen the genes.
I agree with making a sticky for bloat, there has been multiple threads. But I think one thread with all the info would be better wether it debatable or not I think it would help.
I agree with making a sticky for bloat, there has been multiple threads. But I think one thread with all the info would be better wether it debatable or not I think it would help.
