HOLE IN THE HEAD + THIAMINASE - What you need to know!!!!!!

[Miles]

Thanks for the info. However, I would disagree (or at least question) a couple of your conclusions. First, with regard to "Thiaminase", this is an enzyme and is therefore, a protein. My guess is that it is inactivated and digested within the dietary tract of the fish that ate the feeder, just as any other protein present in the feeder would be. If you have contrary info. about the survival of thiaminase I would be interested in reading it. My Dats have been given a steady diet of goldfish for four years and have never been sick a day during that period.

I would imagine that if the dietary tract digested the protein, that you would see many more healthy Oscar fish fed exclusively a diet of goldfish. You would also see many people suggesting and advocating this as a primary food source not only for fish, but for herps as well. In the first article I linked up, this is a few things I gathered;
7.) Thiaminase (There are 2 types, Type I & Type II) is an enzyme.

8.) Enzymes are biological catalysts made of proteins.

9.) A catalyst is a substance that speeds up a chemical reaction without being consumed by that reaction. It makes reactions happen faster. Like if a log rots over 5 years, & you somehow catalyze all the chemical reactions involved & make it rot in 5 minutes.

10.) Our bodies require enzymes to speed some of the chemical reactions required in our metabolism.

11.) Thiaminase destroys Thiamine (Vitamin B1).

12.) Regular intake of substantial amounts of food containing thiaminase could introduce enough thiaminase into the gut to break down the thiamine in food & render an animal thiamine-deficient.

With #12 being the most important.. I couldn't find a link in regards to your specific question (perhaps it was in the longer case study on thiaminase link?) but I did some pretty comprehensive google searches and couldn't come up with much on that topic.. I was under the impression that the body breaks it down and stores it, but not so much the case after some reading.. Most sources cited that large intakes of thiaminase overtime will simply create a nutrition deficiency within the dietary tract..

Anyone else have good links/insight?

Second, I'm not sure about your take on "osmosis". Presumably, you are aware that a freshwater fish is hypertonic with respect to the water surrounding it. This means that water, not "solids" is continually attempting to diffuse into the fish. The slime coat is a reasonably good barrier, but not perfect. This is why fw fish are constantly urinating....to get rid of the excess water.

I thought the water contained solids, therefor the fish has to filter out or filter in solids in order to make them 'balanced' with they are surrounded with.. So, a higher amount of solids would put 'pressure' on the osmosis system due to it having to work harder to filter out solids and excrete more water..

You seem more well educated on the subject.. want to provide some clarity here? I'm interested..

Finally, in spite of a myriad of claims made about the benefits of salt, I can find absolutely no "authoratative" scientific information or data to confirm any of them. Most of the salt-related articles are pseudo-scientific speculation on the part of aquariasts. Empirically, I have never understood why a fish that has evolved in an aquatic environment essentially devoid of NaCl would be expected to benefit from the addition of NaCl in an aquarium. It is an absolute mystery to me why people add salt to their tanks when the fish become ill.

Certainly, I would agree that water changes are important, however.

I agree, Salt is worthless.. I have read a few articles saying that you only need a teaspoon of salt per 500g in order to aid in the osmosis of fish. Necrocanis had a good thread a while back about NOT giving South American catfish salt and the effects on the osmosis system.

Would be nice to know the exact pros and cons of salt.. I thought it was more of a 'masked' amount of Solids to aid in osmosis. I have heard from aquarists about boosts in electrolytes, but not sure where that comes from?

Anyways, continue on

 

[Miles]

It was also noted that many Thiaminase problens and Thiamin deficiencies can be countered with a good varied diet/nutrition, less frequent feedings of thiaminase loaded fish, and extra water changes..

A diet exclusively of goldfish can be detrimental..

brianp - Do your datnoids eat any other varied foods? Just curious.. perhaps simple large frequent water changes can counteract it by replenishing nutrients? I figured it would be a matter of ingestion, though.. ?

 

[West1]

Is there a link to cure or heal HITH???

 

[TwistedPenguin]

Is there a link to cure or heal HITH???

I'm 100% convinced the only "link" is low nitrates and a good varied diet including veggies. With low nitrates being the #1 "cure". The info on thiaminase is awesome and much appreciated.

 

[js97]

I'm reading all this (great info by the way), and a lightbulb went off.

I currently have several puffer fish, including a fahaka puffer that I'm feeding Clams, shrimp, snails and earthworms. Considering crustaceans are a natural part of their diet - and by some accounts here high in Thiaminase - would it not be logical for us to conclude that some species of fish handle Thiaminase better than others?

Maybe cichlids are more sensitive to thiamanase than other species of fish?

 

[Miguel]

I'm reading all this (great info by the way), and a lightbulb went off.

I currently have several puffer fish, including a fahaka puffer that I'm feeding Clams, shrimp, snails and earthworms. Considering crustaceans are a natural part of their diet - and by some accounts here high in Thiaminase - would it not be logical for us to conclude that some species of fish handle Thiaminase better than others?

Maybe cichlids are more sensitive to thiamanase than other species of fish?

This is my idea all along. I've only encountered HiH and LLE in Cichlids...

 

[Ash]

Just something I thought I would add about HITH:

After a lot of reading, talking with people who study meds and like fish, talking to people in general and looking up information, this is what I have learned:

HITH Is not a disease it's self. I agree with you statement about HITH, but what I wanted to add is that its like a symptom of what you listed. What I mean by that is when you have a cold, a symptom of that cold is a cough. Well HITH is like a cough, its the symptom of many of those things that Miles listed. HITH usually does not heal and tends to scar.

 

[carlrs]

I know I am late to this thread, but I found this a very interesting thread.
One point that I did see noted was the use of Gut loading of feeder fish, especially with foods containing Spirulina and other vegetable matter which in thr wild is part of a Piscivore Cichlids diet.

Reference: http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/02/hole-in-head.html

 

[crazy clowntang]

I am going to bump this because I think it is a great thread and sine most MFK'ers dont search past the first page of a forum, this will bring it to the front again where it should be and I think it is sticky worthy.

 

[Lupin]

I am going to bump this because I think it is a great thread and sine most MFK'ers dont search past the first page of a forum, this will bring it to the front again where it should be and I think it is sticky worthy.

Stuck. Hopefully more people will continue the discussion on this interesting subject.