Homemade Food for South American Cichlids
- Thread starter Lilyann
- Start date
I'm sorry, but feeding mammal meat of any kind to a finfish is No Bueno in my books. You asked about papers/studies, Amy, so here's a link to a more recent scientific paper that I think every discus owner/breeder should read.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1679-62252008000400008
"This species feeds predominantly on algal periphyton, fine organic detritus, plant matter, and small aquatic invertebrates."
"The alimentary canal of Symphysodon is characterized by a poorly defined stomach and an elongate intestine, some 300 mm long and 3 mm wide (in a 180 mm SL specimen). This intestinal morphology is typical of a cichlid with a dominantly vegetarian, detritivorous, or omnivorous diet."
Heiko Bleher wrote the following…………
What do Discus eat?
I have examined hundreds of specimens during many years and stomach and gut contents among wild Discus indicate an order of precedence: detritus, then plant material (flowers, fruits, seeds, leaves), algae and micro-algae, aquatic invertebrates and terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. The Amazon has adapted to nature for fishes during millennia of evolution. Plants of the tropical rainforest have little water and cannot flourish during the dry season so cannot waste energy. The same happens to most freshwater fishes.
During the dry period, with a much reduced water level and hardly any food source — except for predators — many fish starve or feed on the little available, usually detritus.
Discus and many other fishes eat what they can get, but have to be constantly aware of carnivorous predators. During the six to nine months of floods, almost all trees and bushes, flower and have fruits and seeds — which is the main nutrition of roughly 75% of all Amazonian fishes.
The adults, and babies which grow to adults in that period, can then fill their stomachs and guts.
The carnivorous predators starve as they cannot find their prey in the huge water masses.
How much nutrition?
I have found the following percentage of nutrition in each one of the three species:
Symphysodon discus during low water: 55% detritus; 15% plant material; 12% algae and micro-algae; 10% aquatic invertebrates; 8% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. During high water: 28% detritus; 52% plant material; 5% algae and micro-algae; 3% aquatic invertebrates; 12% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods.
Symphysodon aequifasciatus low water: 52% detritus; 18% plant material; 15% algae and micro-algae; 13% aquatic invertebrates; 2% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. High water: 8% detritus; 62% plant material; 8% algae and micro-algae; 5% aquatic invertebrates; 17% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods.
Symphysodon haraldi low water: 39% detritus; 9% plant material; 25% algae and micro-algae; 22% aquatic invertebrates; 5% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. High water: 6% detritus; 44% Plant material; 12% algae and micro-algae; 16% aquatic invertebrates; 22% terrestrial and aboreal arthropods.
.............................................................
Not exactly a species of fish geared towards eating high protein foods such as mammal meat, and the fact that many discus owners still feed their fish foods such as beef heart doesn't equate to it being an ideal form of nutrition. According to the most recent science available, I would think far from it.
Several years ago Chong et al ran a 3 month feed trial on juvenile discus (fish approx. 4.5 grams in weight) and concluded that a diet consisting of 45-50% protein, and 8% fat was ideal for optimum growth for juveniles of this species. I have no argument with those stats, and again the same could be said for thousands of other ornamental species of fish, but somehow this data has been used by certain segments of Discus keepers to support their use of a high protein diet such as beef heart. I have never understood the logic in that.
Chong et al used fish meal as the source of protein (along with casein & gelatine as binding agents) in their study, not beefheart.
Even a lot of the old school discus keepers have moved away from foods such as beef heart over the past decade, for these exact reasons. It's a great food for breeders that simply want quick growth in their juvenile fish (so they can take them to market quicker) but in my opinion it is most certainly not an ideal long term diet due to the potential of fatty degeneration of the liver.
Jack Wattley has recently stated that a good staple pellet or flake food is more ideal for optimum health. In the Dec 2006 edition of Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine, Jack stated:
"I've moved in a new direction regarding the feeding of discus, and after many tests feel that a top quality flake or pellet food formulated especially for discus is perhaps the best direction to take.”
The late Dr. Schmidt-Focke was one of the first to realize health problems when feeding foods such as beef heart, and quit feeding his discus beef heart in favor of a seafood based diet. Dieter Untergasser has also demonstrated the harm beefheart can have on discus and other long lived cichlids. And there are studies that have taken place that demonstrated that when too much protein is fed to a juvenile discus it can have the opposite effect, as it requires energy to excrete the excess amino acids (protein), which is energy that could have been used for growth.
It is my opinion that the goal should be to closely match the amino acids, fatty acids, vitamins etc. as the fish would receive if eating in the wild. With today's commercial foods this is much easier to do than 30-40 yrs. ago, and with a nutrient dense commercial food a fish will generally always be consuming more nutrients on a daily basis than they typically would in the wild. This equates to steady healthy even growth in a fish. Perhaps one won't see the massive gains as they would when feeding mammal meat, but I personally don't see slower more even growth a negative.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1679-62252008000400008
"This species feeds predominantly on algal periphyton, fine organic detritus, plant matter, and small aquatic invertebrates."
"The alimentary canal of Symphysodon is characterized by a poorly defined stomach and an elongate intestine, some 300 mm long and 3 mm wide (in a 180 mm SL specimen). This intestinal morphology is typical of a cichlid with a dominantly vegetarian, detritivorous, or omnivorous diet."
Heiko Bleher wrote the following…………
What do Discus eat?
I have examined hundreds of specimens during many years and stomach and gut contents among wild Discus indicate an order of precedence: detritus, then plant material (flowers, fruits, seeds, leaves), algae and micro-algae, aquatic invertebrates and terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. The Amazon has adapted to nature for fishes during millennia of evolution. Plants of the tropical rainforest have little water and cannot flourish during the dry season so cannot waste energy. The same happens to most freshwater fishes.
During the dry period, with a much reduced water level and hardly any food source — except for predators — many fish starve or feed on the little available, usually detritus.
Discus and many other fishes eat what they can get, but have to be constantly aware of carnivorous predators. During the six to nine months of floods, almost all trees and bushes, flower and have fruits and seeds — which is the main nutrition of roughly 75% of all Amazonian fishes.
The adults, and babies which grow to adults in that period, can then fill their stomachs and guts.
The carnivorous predators starve as they cannot find their prey in the huge water masses.
How much nutrition?
I have found the following percentage of nutrition in each one of the three species:
Symphysodon discus during low water: 55% detritus; 15% plant material; 12% algae and micro-algae; 10% aquatic invertebrates; 8% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. During high water: 28% detritus; 52% plant material; 5% algae and micro-algae; 3% aquatic invertebrates; 12% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods.
Symphysodon aequifasciatus low water: 52% detritus; 18% plant material; 15% algae and micro-algae; 13% aquatic invertebrates; 2% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. High water: 8% detritus; 62% plant material; 8% algae and micro-algae; 5% aquatic invertebrates; 17% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods.
Symphysodon haraldi low water: 39% detritus; 9% plant material; 25% algae and micro-algae; 22% aquatic invertebrates; 5% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. High water: 6% detritus; 44% Plant material; 12% algae and micro-algae; 16% aquatic invertebrates; 22% terrestrial and aboreal arthropods.
.............................................................
Not exactly a species of fish geared towards eating high protein foods such as mammal meat, and the fact that many discus owners still feed their fish foods such as beef heart doesn't equate to it being an ideal form of nutrition. According to the most recent science available, I would think far from it.
Several years ago Chong et al ran a 3 month feed trial on juvenile discus (fish approx. 4.5 grams in weight) and concluded that a diet consisting of 45-50% protein, and 8% fat was ideal for optimum growth for juveniles of this species. I have no argument with those stats, and again the same could be said for thousands of other ornamental species of fish, but somehow this data has been used by certain segments of Discus keepers to support their use of a high protein diet such as beef heart. I have never understood the logic in that.
Chong et al used fish meal as the source of protein (along with casein & gelatine as binding agents) in their study, not beefheart.
Even a lot of the old school discus keepers have moved away from foods such as beef heart over the past decade, for these exact reasons. It's a great food for breeders that simply want quick growth in their juvenile fish (so they can take them to market quicker) but in my opinion it is most certainly not an ideal long term diet due to the potential of fatty degeneration of the liver.
Jack Wattley has recently stated that a good staple pellet or flake food is more ideal for optimum health. In the Dec 2006 edition of Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine, Jack stated:
"I've moved in a new direction regarding the feeding of discus, and after many tests feel that a top quality flake or pellet food formulated especially for discus is perhaps the best direction to take.”
The late Dr. Schmidt-Focke was one of the first to realize health problems when feeding foods such as beef heart, and quit feeding his discus beef heart in favor of a seafood based diet. Dieter Untergasser has also demonstrated the harm beefheart can have on discus and other long lived cichlids. And there are studies that have taken place that demonstrated that when too much protein is fed to a juvenile discus it can have the opposite effect, as it requires energy to excrete the excess amino acids (protein), which is energy that could have been used for growth.
It is my opinion that the goal should be to closely match the amino acids, fatty acids, vitamins etc. as the fish would receive if eating in the wild. With today's commercial foods this is much easier to do than 30-40 yrs. ago, and with a nutrient dense commercial food a fish will generally always be consuming more nutrients on a daily basis than they typically would in the wild. This equates to steady healthy even growth in a fish. Perhaps one won't see the massive gains as they would when feeding mammal meat, but I personally don't see slower more even growth a negative.
I'm sorry, but feeding mammal meat of any kind to a finfish is No Bueno in my books. You asked about papers/studies, Amy, so here's a link to a more recent scientific paper that I think every discus owner/breeder should read.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1679-62252008000400008
"This species feeds predominantly on algal periphyton, fine organic detritus, plant matter, and small aquatic invertebrates."
"The alimentary canal of Symphysodon is characterized by a poorly defined stomach and an elongate intestine, some 300 mm long and 3 mm wide (in a 180 mm SL specimen). This intestinal morphology is typical of a cichlid with a dominantly vegetarian, detritivorous, or omnivorous diet."
Heiko Bleher wrote the following…………
What do Discus eat?
I have examined hundreds of specimens during many years and stomach and gut contents among wild Discus indicate an order of precedence: detritus, then plant material (flowers, fruits, seeds, leaves), algae and micro-algae, aquatic invertebrates and terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. The Amazon has adapted to nature for fishes during millennia of evolution. Plants of the tropical rainforest have little water and cannot flourish during the dry season so cannot waste energy. The same happens to most freshwater fishes.
During the dry period, with a much reduced water level and hardly any food source — except for predators — many fish starve or feed on the little available, usually detritus.
Discus and many other fishes eat what they can get, but have to be constantly aware of carnivorous predators. During the six to nine months of floods, almost all trees and bushes, flower and have fruits and seeds — which is the main nutrition of roughly 75% of all Amazonian fishes.
The adults, and babies which grow to adults in that period, can then fill their stomachs and guts.
The carnivorous predators starve as they cannot find their prey in the huge water masses.
How much nutrition?
I have found the following percentage of nutrition in each one of the three species:
Symphysodon discus during low water: 55% detritus; 15% plant material; 12% algae and micro-algae; 10% aquatic invertebrates; 8% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. During high water: 28% detritus; 52% plant material; 5% algae and micro-algae; 3% aquatic invertebrates; 12% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods.
Symphysodon aequifasciatus low water: 52% detritus; 18% plant material; 15% algae and micro-algae; 13% aquatic invertebrates; 2% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. High water: 8% detritus; 62% plant material; 8% algae and micro-algae; 5% aquatic invertebrates; 17% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods.
Symphysodon haraldi low water: 39% detritus; 9% plant material; 25% algae and micro-algae; 22% aquatic invertebrates; 5% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. High water: 6% detritus; 44% Plant material; 12% algae and micro-algae; 16% aquatic invertebrates; 22% terrestrial and aboreal arthropods.
.............................................................
Not exactly a species of fish geared towards eating high protein foods such as mammal meat, and the fact that many discus owners still feed their fish foods such as beef heart doesn't equate to it being an ideal form of nutrition. According to the most recent science available, I would think far from it.
Several years ago Chong et al ran a 3 month feed trial on juvenile discus (fish approx. 4.5 grams in weight) and concluded that a diet consisting of 45-50% protein, and 8% fat was ideal for optimum growth for juveniles of this species. I have no argument with those stats, and again the same could be said for thousands of other ornamental species of fish, but somehow this data has been used by certain segments of Discus keepers to support their use of a high protein diet such as beef heart. I have never understood the logic in that.
Chong et al used fish meal as the source of protein (along with casein & gelatine as binding agents) in their study, not beefheart.
Even a lot of the old school discus keepers have moved away from foods such as beef heart over the past decade, for these exact reasons. It's a great food for breeders that simply want quick growth in their juvenile fish (so they can take them to market quicker) but in my opinion it is most certainly not an ideal long term diet due to the potential of fatty degeneration of the liver.
Jack Wattley has recently stated that a good staple pellet or flake food is more ideal for optimum health. In the Dec 2006 edition of Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine, Jack stated:
"I've moved in a new direction regarding the feeding of discus, and after many tests feel that a top quality flake or pellet food formulated especially for discus is perhaps the best direction to take.”
The late Dr. Schmidt-Focke was one of the first to realize health problems when feeding foods such as beef heart, and quit feeding his discus beef heart in favor of a seafood based diet. Dieter Untergasser has also demonstrated the harm beefheart can have on discus and other long lived cichlids. And there are studies that have taken place that demonstrated that when too much protein is fed to a juvenile discus it can have the opposite effect, as it requires energy to excrete the excess amino acids (protein), which is energy that could have been used for growth.
It is my opinion that the goal should be to closely match the amino acids, fatty acids, vitamins etc. as the fish would receive if eating in the wild. With today's commercial foods this is much easier to do than 30-40 yrs. ago, and with a nutrient dense commercial food a fish will generally always be consuming more nutrients on a daily basis than they typically would in the wild. This equates to steady healthy even growth in a fish. Perhaps one won't see the massive gains as they would when feeding mammal meat, but I personally don't see slower more even growth a negative.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1679-62252008000400008
"This species feeds predominantly on algal periphyton, fine organic detritus, plant matter, and small aquatic invertebrates."
"The alimentary canal of Symphysodon is characterized by a poorly defined stomach and an elongate intestine, some 300 mm long and 3 mm wide (in a 180 mm SL specimen). This intestinal morphology is typical of a cichlid with a dominantly vegetarian, detritivorous, or omnivorous diet."
Heiko Bleher wrote the following…………
What do Discus eat?
I have examined hundreds of specimens during many years and stomach and gut contents among wild Discus indicate an order of precedence: detritus, then plant material (flowers, fruits, seeds, leaves), algae and micro-algae, aquatic invertebrates and terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. The Amazon has adapted to nature for fishes during millennia of evolution. Plants of the tropical rainforest have little water and cannot flourish during the dry season so cannot waste energy. The same happens to most freshwater fishes.
During the dry period, with a much reduced water level and hardly any food source — except for predators — many fish starve or feed on the little available, usually detritus.
Discus and many other fishes eat what they can get, but have to be constantly aware of carnivorous predators. During the six to nine months of floods, almost all trees and bushes, flower and have fruits and seeds — which is the main nutrition of roughly 75% of all Amazonian fishes.
The adults, and babies which grow to adults in that period, can then fill their stomachs and guts.
The carnivorous predators starve as they cannot find their prey in the huge water masses.
How much nutrition?
I have found the following percentage of nutrition in each one of the three species:
Symphysodon discus during low water: 55% detritus; 15% plant material; 12% algae and micro-algae; 10% aquatic invertebrates; 8% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. During high water: 28% detritus; 52% plant material; 5% algae and micro-algae; 3% aquatic invertebrates; 12% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods.
Symphysodon aequifasciatus low water: 52% detritus; 18% plant material; 15% algae and micro-algae; 13% aquatic invertebrates; 2% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. High water: 8% detritus; 62% plant material; 8% algae and micro-algae; 5% aquatic invertebrates; 17% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods.
Symphysodon haraldi low water: 39% detritus; 9% plant material; 25% algae and micro-algae; 22% aquatic invertebrates; 5% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. High water: 6% detritus; 44% Plant material; 12% algae and micro-algae; 16% aquatic invertebrates; 22% terrestrial and aboreal arthropods.
.............................................................
Not exactly a species of fish geared towards eating high protein foods such as mammal meat, and the fact that many discus owners still feed their fish foods such as beef heart doesn't equate to it being an ideal form of nutrition. According to the most recent science available, I would think far from it.
Several years ago Chong et al ran a 3 month feed trial on juvenile discus (fish approx. 4.5 grams in weight) and concluded that a diet consisting of 45-50% protein, and 8% fat was ideal for optimum growth for juveniles of this species. I have no argument with those stats, and again the same could be said for thousands of other ornamental species of fish, but somehow this data has been used by certain segments of Discus keepers to support their use of a high protein diet such as beef heart. I have never understood the logic in that.
Chong et al used fish meal as the source of protein (along with casein & gelatine as binding agents) in their study, not beefheart.
Even a lot of the old school discus keepers have moved away from foods such as beef heart over the past decade, for these exact reasons. It's a great food for breeders that simply want quick growth in their juvenile fish (so they can take them to market quicker) but in my opinion it is most certainly not an ideal long term diet due to the potential of fatty degeneration of the liver.
Jack Wattley has recently stated that a good staple pellet or flake food is more ideal for optimum health. In the Dec 2006 edition of Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine, Jack stated:
"I've moved in a new direction regarding the feeding of discus, and after many tests feel that a top quality flake or pellet food formulated especially for discus is perhaps the best direction to take.”
The late Dr. Schmidt-Focke was one of the first to realize health problems when feeding foods such as beef heart, and quit feeding his discus beef heart in favor of a seafood based diet. Dieter Untergasser has also demonstrated the harm beefheart can have on discus and other long lived cichlids. And there are studies that have taken place that demonstrated that when too much protein is fed to a juvenile discus it can have the opposite effect, as it requires energy to excrete the excess amino acids (protein), which is energy that could have been used for growth.
It is my opinion that the goal should be to closely match the amino acids, fatty acids, vitamins etc. as the fish would receive if eating in the wild. With today's commercial foods this is much easier to do than 30-40 yrs. ago, and with a nutrient dense commercial food a fish will generally always be consuming more nutrients on a daily basis than they typically would in the wild. This equates to steady healthy even growth in a fish. Perhaps one won't see the massive gains as they would when feeding mammal meat, but I personally don't see slower more even growth a negative.
Great article, I have bookmarked it so I can read it more thoroughly later.
It appears that discus in the wild are far more omnivorous than has been recognized or (ignored?) by breeders . Particularly of plant material.
I have read various bits of information alluding to the detrimental effects of feeding a beef-heart diet exclusively, but never a peer-reviewed study to confirm the stomach contents of the species in the wild. The information that I did gather, however, made me change to a more diverse set of foods.
Well, I certainly can give up the 1/4 % diet of beef-heart I have still held onto despite my misgivings of its actual nutritive effects.
Also, I may try giving the NLS pellets to my discus. I am not doubting that you mean what you say--- that you have not had any issues with feeding pellets, its just that I need to process this first.
Have you posted this article to Simply? Has AL Sabetta seen it? If so, what were the reactions? If I had to guess, not necessarily an open-minded take on it?
It appears that discus in the wild are far more omnivorous than has been recognized or (ignored?) by breeders . Particularly of plant material.
I have read various bits of information alluding to the detrimental effects of feeding a beef-heart diet exclusively, but never a peer-reviewed study to confirm the stomach contents of the species in the wild. The information that I did gather, however, made me change to a more diverse set of foods.
Well, I certainly can give up the 1/4 % diet of beef-heart I have still held onto despite my misgivings of its actual nutritive effects.
Also, I may try giving the NLS pellets to my discus. I am not doubting that you mean what you say--- that you have not had any issues with feeding pellets, its just that I need to process this first.
Have you posted this article to Simply? Has AL Sabetta seen it? If so, what were the reactions? If I had to guess, not necessarily an open-minded take on it?
Also, by the way, I have Schmidt-Focke's Discus Book, published in 1989.
I haven't picked it up in many years, but, I am curious to see if he speaks of his concerns concerning beef-heart in this text. Ill take a look.
I do remember seeing an online video of Jack Wattley stating that he felt that a pelleted food would be a better option than the beef-heart. I forget the exact words he used-- but, this interview was one of the sources that encouraged me to feed differently.
You have jogged my (old) memory that I had come across it at some point.
I haven't picked it up in many years, but, I am curious to see if he speaks of his concerns concerning beef-heart in this text. Ill take a look.
I do remember seeing an online video of Jack Wattley stating that he felt that a pelleted food would be a better option than the beef-heart. I forget the exact words he used-- but, this interview was one of the sources that encouraged me to feed differently.
You have jogged my (old) memory that I had come across it at some point.
Al Sabetta's goals in fishkeeping, and mine, are polar opposites. But yes, I made him aware of that study 7 years ago. I was largely ignored by Al and the masses on Simply.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?73086-quot-Beefheart-quot-under-the-microscope/page6
I made the mistake of posting on various forums with the same ID, an ID that back at that time was attached to New Life International. I was a Canadian distributor back then, and didn't hide that fact, or apologize for it. Many on Simply couldn't seem to see past that, including Al. At one point Al Pm'd me basically chastising me for a comment I made on the forum, while being attacked by his pals, and then threatened my membership. I told him to go piss up a rope, and never looked back. A decision that I have never regretted.
I posted the following in another thread, on this same topic.
There are no studies in favor of feeding beef heart. Even the studies that support the use of a high protein diet, only state such for JUVENILE discus. Al was talking out of his arse about quantifiable effects on the fishes health and longevity, when we know for fact that excess fat in a fishes diet can lead to necrosis of hepatocytes, atrophy of the pancreas, etc. Clearly that affects the longevity of a fish. The real testament on Simply regarding BH was around the same time period when there was a thread on the average age of discus owned on Simply - which Al told me was 4-5 years. I was stunned at the time. Cichlids that only live 4-5 yrs on average. WTF? Even in that BH thread some people were poo-pooing fish over 6-7 yrs of age, as those fish would be on the decline so whatev. (see comment below) There are cichlids over 15 yrs of age, owned by folks on this forum, that have eaten pellets almost exclusively their entire life. Almost every fish that I have ever owned has lived what would be considered a normal or typical lifespan, and all have been raised on pellet food. This is not shocking news for anyone that has kept their fish for the long term.
If a cichlids (Discus, or whatever species) natural lifespan is 10 yrs, or more, and the average fish owned by a collective group is dead by the age of 4-5 (so said Al on Simply) then maybe those folks ought to be taking a closer look at what they are doing, as in feeding beefheart to a fish that as an adult (in the wild) does not consume a diet that is even remotely close to mammal meat.
As stated in that discussion, in Heiko Bleher's Discus book vol 1. it gives a full description of wild Discus nutrition and states that the 5 most common items eaten by discus in the wild are; detritus, vegetable matter, algae & micro algae, aquatic invertebrates, terrestrial & arboreal arthropods. That does not equate to the high protein mammal meat based diets that are utilized by certain hobbyists. I even suggested back then, as I would now, If one feels the need to supplement the diet, I would think that insects such as ants, spiders, cricket parts, mealworms, etc would be far better suited to their digestive system, than foods such as beefheart.
I was also quick to note that in Al's last post, nowhere did I see one of his goals in keeping discus, to be their longevity. His attitude apparently mirrored others on that forum.
"And nowadays, I doubt anyone here will keep any of their Discus to old age. There are too many different colors and strains out there, and everyone wants them. People are always selling off, or trading on here, their Discus, to get new ones. New strains. New colors. I doubt any will die of old age...neglect? yes."
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?73086-quot-Beefheart-quot-under-the-microscope/page6
I made the mistake of posting on various forums with the same ID, an ID that back at that time was attached to New Life International. I was a Canadian distributor back then, and didn't hide that fact, or apologize for it. Many on Simply couldn't seem to see past that, including Al. At one point Al Pm'd me basically chastising me for a comment I made on the forum, while being attacked by his pals, and then threatened my membership. I told him to go piss up a rope, and never looked back. A decision that I have never regretted.
I posted the following in another thread, on this same topic.
There are no studies in favor of feeding beef heart. Even the studies that support the use of a high protein diet, only state such for JUVENILE discus. Al was talking out of his arse about quantifiable effects on the fishes health and longevity, when we know for fact that excess fat in a fishes diet can lead to necrosis of hepatocytes, atrophy of the pancreas, etc. Clearly that affects the longevity of a fish. The real testament on Simply regarding BH was around the same time period when there was a thread on the average age of discus owned on Simply - which Al told me was 4-5 years. I was stunned at the time. Cichlids that only live 4-5 yrs on average. WTF? Even in that BH thread some people were poo-pooing fish over 6-7 yrs of age, as those fish would be on the decline so whatev. (see comment below) There are cichlids over 15 yrs of age, owned by folks on this forum, that have eaten pellets almost exclusively their entire life. Almost every fish that I have ever owned has lived what would be considered a normal or typical lifespan, and all have been raised on pellet food. This is not shocking news for anyone that has kept their fish for the long term.
If a cichlids (Discus, or whatever species) natural lifespan is 10 yrs, or more, and the average fish owned by a collective group is dead by the age of 4-5 (so said Al on Simply) then maybe those folks ought to be taking a closer look at what they are doing, as in feeding beefheart to a fish that as an adult (in the wild) does not consume a diet that is even remotely close to mammal meat.
As stated in that discussion, in Heiko Bleher's Discus book vol 1. it gives a full description of wild Discus nutrition and states that the 5 most common items eaten by discus in the wild are; detritus, vegetable matter, algae & micro algae, aquatic invertebrates, terrestrial & arboreal arthropods. That does not equate to the high protein mammal meat based diets that are utilized by certain hobbyists. I even suggested back then, as I would now, If one feels the need to supplement the diet, I would think that insects such as ants, spiders, cricket parts, mealworms, etc would be far better suited to their digestive system, than foods such as beefheart.
I was also quick to note that in Al's last post, nowhere did I see one of his goals in keeping discus, to be their longevity. His attitude apparently mirrored others on that forum.
"And nowadays, I doubt anyone here will keep any of their Discus to old age. There are too many different colors and strains out there, and everyone wants them. People are always selling off, or trading on here, their Discus, to get new ones. New strains. New colors. I doubt any will die of old age...neglect? yes."
I'm not a discus person, but i know a good bit of people who breed them. I can't believe beef heart is recommended.
I'm not trying to knock hikari but my bloat problems decreased by atleast 1/2 after switching to omega and nls. I lost several beani and istlanum until a African breeder gave me a suggestion. Now an Oscar or similar no problem. Anything that was bloat prone seemed to not do the best on hikari or the like.
Not digging. It's just what I personally experienced.
I'm not trying to knock hikari but my bloat problems decreased by atleast 1/2 after switching to omega and nls. I lost several beani and istlanum until a African breeder gave me a suggestion. Now an Oscar or similar no problem. Anything that was bloat prone seemed to not do the best on hikari or the like.
Not digging. It's just what I personally experienced.
I posted the following on "bloat" in 2012, it was later made a sticky. In that topic I mention grain fillers, and the potential risk associated with feeding certain species of fish excessive amounts of these types of ingredients.
https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/bloat-causes-cures-and-big-myths.456034/
https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/bloat-causes-cures-and-big-myths.456034/
