How to lower ammonia?

[RD.]

Devise an experiment and have a neutral party perform it.

I would honestly love to do that, but the reality is for myself, I have no way in pulling that off, and IMO there's really no need. I am 100% certain as to what the end result would be, the only unknown would be how much bio-bacteria is killed. And that's where strength of the residual, the contact time, and the exact spp of bacteria would come into play. I can't imagine that anyone believes that oxidizing agents such as chlorine and/or chloramine are not harmful to the bacteria strains that keep our tanks balanced and safe for our fish. Obviously both kill fish, and the toxicity of both with a number of fish species has been well documented.

I think that perhaps there is another flaw in the no-harm theory, and that is assuming that all "nitrifying bacteria" are all one in the same, as in the ones found in a water distribution line, are exactly the same as the ones found in home aquaria. But are they? In some of the reports regarding water distribution, it has been suggested that some of these bacteria found within a water distribution line have over time built up a resistance to chloramine. Other bacteria being discussed in most of these peer reviewed papers are not even the same spp that I would consider the primary concern in an aquarium setting, which would be those closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina. Not once did I see either of those two strains being mentioned in any of these papers. In fact Nitrospira when mentioned is often added on at the end, almost like an afterthought to all of the other so called "nitrifying bacteria" found within the water distribution system.



I posted the following back in 2015, which received almost zero interest.

My apologies if this has already been posted here.


Surprise: One organism responsible for nitrification instead of two

Date:
November 26, 2015
Source:
Radboud University
Summary:
It could never be found until recently, in a fish tank a few floors below a university microbiology department: one single organism able to perform the complete process of nitrification. Microbiologists used to think that two distinct groups of bacteria were responsible for the stepwise oxidation of ammonia to nitrate via nitrite. This discovery has implications for climate research and wastewater treatment, say the scientists involved in the study.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/11/151126134915.htm

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vnfv/ncurrent/full/nature16459.html

From the following paper .......

Nitrospira-Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria - PMC

Oxidation of nitrite to nitrate in aquaria is typically attributed to bacteria belonging to the genus Nitrobacter which are members of the α subdivision of the class Proteobacteria. In order to identify bacteria responsible for nitrite oxidation in ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Traditionally, the bacteria responsible for the oxidation of ammonia and nitrite in aquaria were considered to be Nitrosomonas europaea and Nitrobacter winogradskyi or their close relatives, respectively (17, 18). However, there is some indication that both N. europaea and N. winogradskyi may not be predominant components of actively nitrifying freshwater aquaria (9). In seawater aquaria, however, N. europaea and close relatives do appear to comprise a significant proportion of the total eubacterial community, but N. winogradskyi was below detection limits (9)."




Today it seems that science is more focussed on Nitrospira-like bacteria. Thanks to Dr. Timothy Hovanec that years ago led a team of scientists that proved that Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter were to be a mistaken assumption for many years. Ammonia is converted to nitrite by bacteria of the Nitrosonomas marina-like strain and nitrite is converted to nitrate by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina. With several subsequent scientific studies by other scientists this data is now accepted and confirmed scientific fact. Nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria is believed to be mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina.

Paul C. Burrell, Carol M. Phalen, and Timothy A. Hovanec, “Identification of Bacteria Responsible for Ammonia Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria,” Applied and Environmental Microbiology, December 2001, pp. 5791-5800.


Hovanec, T. A., L. T. Taylor, A. Blakis and E. F. DeLong, “Nitrospira- Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria,” Applied and Environmental Microbiology, Vol. 64, No. 1, pp. 258-264.






IMHO we need to be careful when generalizing on forums such as these. I'm all for learning new things, including new science when it becomes available, but I think that it is foolish to think that one can simply extrapolate the findings in a paper that is viewing what takes place in a water distribution system, and the various "nitrifying bacteria" typically found in a water distribution system, where among other things tolerance levels and/or resistance can come into play, to what takes place in an established aquarium. I'm certainly not an expert on any of this, nor do I hold a qualifying PhD in this area. What I do have is a lot of common sense, and a lot of years of experience in this hobby. Chlorine & chloramine are toxins, and at elevated levels will kill fish, and the bacteria that support the lives of those fish. What the exact breaking point is in an established (or worse, unestablished) home aquaria I do not know, nor do I wish to experiment to find out. Well, at least not with my fish. I've already seen the first hand results in other folks tanks.

 

[RD.]

Well I can't get into the scientifics of it all like you guys, but my takeaway on all this is why take a chance, when a bit of extra effort lessens the risk factor considerably, esp. for those who live in places where chlorine/chloramine levels are higher. And not trying to come across as an elitist or anything, but this becomes even more poignant when talking about thousand dollar or so fish.

Well yeah, and then there's that. The person that I mentioned previously, who wiped out a large portion of his bio-bacteria by washing his media out in the laundry room tub, among other fish, had an adult gold xback, and an adult black ray in that tank. Guess how he cleans his media since that experience? I'm pretty sure that was the only experiment that he needed to perform. lol

 

[esoxlucius]

I made a joke recently in another thread regarding what you wish someone would have told you before getting into the hobby. I commented by saying I wish someone would have told me to get a chemistry degree!

In all fairness, joking aside, i'm not that far off the mark really. This hobby can be so complex. A lot of people say it's nothing to do with keeping fish, more about keeping water. Keep good water, the rest looks after itself, how very very true that is.

But for the simple guy, like myself, just understanding the basics of keeping that water spot on, and understanding what's going on when things go south, is a real challenge.

It's hardly surprising our hobby is a bit of a niche thing. Too many people have probably tried and tried and tried until they just give up due to the frustrations of constantly losing fish without having a clue what keeps going wrong.

 

[FINWIN]

First off, most water conditioners react pretty much instantaneously with chlorine. With chloramine, which is what I have to treat for, products such as Prime and/or Safe also react pretty much instantaneously. I know this because I have tested many times over the years, using numerous water conditioning products. As I'm sure that duanes has. Duane also worked at a water treatment plant as a microbiologist, so his testing methods were probably a lot more advanced than mine.

By leaving the filters running ( I have 3 AC 110's on the 6 ft tanks that I currently have running) the mixing of water, and water conditioner, is mixed in a very swift and effective manner. No bacteria is killed in this process, at least not enough that it has ever registered with regards to water quality, free ammonia, etc. So perhaps some on rocks, wood, substrate, but my bio material in the filters, nothing, or next to it.

Also, if I forget to add water conditioner in my tanks, with 80-90% water change, and approx. 2 ppm chloramine, killing the bio-bacteria would be the least of my worries. Lots of years under my belt, and I have never forgot to add water conditioner, because where I live that would = dead fish.

2 a T agree here...I also have 3 AC 110s on my 225. I mix the Safe in a 2 gal. bucket and pour it in across the surface and all filters stay on. I turn off the powerhead filters due to water level (heaters also). Fill with the python, plug everything back in. No problems. I don't touch the bio media or sponges at all.

 

[RD.]

I made a joke recently in another thread regarding what you wish someone would have told you before getting into the hobby. I commented by saying I wish someone would have told me to get a chemistry degree!

In all fairness, joking aside, i'm not that far off the mark really. This hobby can be so complex. A lot of people say it's nothing to do with keeping fish, more about keeping water. Keep good water, the rest looks after itself, how very very true that is.

But for the simple guy, like myself, just understanding the basics of keeping that water spot on, and understanding what's going on when things go south, is a real challenge.

It's hardly surprising our hobby is a bit of a niche thing. Too many people have probably tried and tried and tried until they just give up due to the frustrations of constantly losing fish without having a clue what keeps going wrong.

I think that this hobby can be a simple, or as complicated, as one wants to make it. I recall looking after a friends fish room while he was away in Singapore on a fish buying trip. He handed me 2 fricken pages of instructions & things that I needed to check each day! LOL But he had some incredible fish, probably 20K worth of Asian aro alone, along with thousands of dollars worth of black rays, and various other not so easy to find fish. His fish room was crazy over engineered, and super impressive by design, and he was smart enough to pull it all off & make it run like a swiss watch. Myself, I could never build a fish room like that, I just don't have the know how or smarts in that area. I understand my limitations. Asking me to design and build a fish room like his would be like asking me to design & build a 3 story home. I can't even frame a simple garden shed! lol

I’m a simple guy too which is why I tend to apply the KISS (keep it simple stupid) method to fish keeping as much as possible. I also like to add a layer of redundancy where I can, more than 1 filter (in case filter fails), more than 1 heater (at lower wattage so as not to cook fish if/when a thermostat sticks ON) , everything plugged into a GFCI power bar or receptacle, or dedicated GFCI breaker - with a grounding probe in each tank. NOT that I would EVER suggest to others to do this with their bio-media, and their tanks, but ....... I clean my sponges, and finer filter media directly under the tap with 2 ppm chloramine. I understand that I am killing off a percentage of bio-bacteria while doing this, but I honestly don't care if the bacteria is almost completely wiped clean each time that I do this, because I have a large bag of very well established (15-20+ yrs established) sintered glass bio-media in each filter that I protect like the crown jewels.

Those bio-media bags get a light swish in a bucket filled with clean, dechlorinated with Seachem Safe, tap water. I also clean ALL filters at the same time, on the same day, in each tank. Again, this is what I do, with my filters, and my tanks, and my species of fish, because I know exactly what I am doing. I would never recommend this to others. Way too many variables involved to second guess someone else's set up from afar.

One of my large bio-media bags is enough to kick start a 100 gallon tank, instantly. Just add water & fish. I would NEVER clean that media anywhere near ANYTHING that could even remotely be considered toxic. I too have learned my fair share of lessons, the hard way.

Now if I had a 0.1 ppm chlorine residual coming out of my tap, I wouldn't be the least bit worried about dechlorinator, and would probably do exactly like Ted Judy, or at the very most use a weak sodium thiosulfate solution for water changes, and for cleaning media. I don't have plants to help remove free ammonia (NH3) which is also very toxic to fish, so I use a water conditioner that can render NH3 safe for fish (Seachem Safe), because with each water change with chloramine, once the chlorine/ammonia bond is split, free ammonia is left behind.

I also do massive water changes in the 80-90% range, and I have high pH, and at the higher pH values free ammonia becomes a lot more toxic to fish. Add higher temps to that equation and things become even more deadly, if one isn't careful. I hesitate to even mention how large of water changes I do, so as not to influence someone that keeps more sensitive species, or doesn't understand their own personal limitations, like I do. I have kept species of fish in the past where 30% water changes were pretty much the breaking point for their stress level, so that's as high as I went.

This is why is it so important to for each & every hobbyist to understand their limitations, with their set ups, and their fish, and then live by those limitations.



If someone feels that the chlorine and/or chloramine coming out of their taps won't cause any issues in their set ups, or their bio-media, then by all means go for it. Good luck.

 

[esoxlucius]

I think that this hobby can be a simple, or as complicated, as one wants to make it. I recall looking after a friends fish room while he was away in Singapore on a fish buying trip. He handed me 2 fricken pages of instructions & things that I needed to check each day! LOL But he had some incredible fish, probably 20K worth of Asian aro alone, along with thousands of dollars worth of black rays, and various other not so easy to find fish. His fish room was crazy over engineered, and super impressive by design, and he was smart enough to pull it all off & make it run like a swiss watch. Myself, I could never build a fish room like that, I just don't have the know how or smarts in that area. I understand my limitations. Asking me to design and build a fish room like his would be like asking me to design & build a 3 story home. I can't even frame a simple garden shed! lol

I’m a simple guy too which is why I tend to apply the KISS (keep it simple stupid) method to fish keeping as much as possible. I also like to add a layer of redundancy where I can, more than 1 filter (in case filter fails), more than 1 heater (at lower wattage so as not to cook fish if/when a thermostat sticks ON) , everything plugged into a GFCI power bar or receptacle, or dedicated GFCI breaker - with a grounding probe in each tank. NOT that I would EVER suggest to others to do this with their bio-media, and their tanks, but ....... I clean my sponges, and finer filter media directly under the tap with 2 ppm chloramine. I understand that I am killing off a percentage of bio-bacteria while doing this, but I honestly don't care if the bacteria is almost completely wiped clean each time that I do this, because I have a large bag of very well established (15-20+ yrs established) sintered glass bio-media in each filter that I protect like the crown jewels.

Those bio-media bags get a light swish in a bucket filled with clean, dechlorinated with Seachem Safe, tap water. I also clean ALL filters at the same time, on the same day, in each tank. Again, this is what I do, with my filters, and my tanks, and my species of fish, because I know exactly what I am doing. I would never recommend this to others. Way too many variables involved to second guess someone else's set up from afar.

One of my large bio-media bags is enough to kick start a 100 gallon tank, instantly. Just add water & fish. I would NEVER clean that media anywhere near ANYTHING that could even remotely be considered toxic. I too have learned my fair share of lessons, the hard way.

Now if I had a 0.1 ppm chlorine residual coming out of my tap, I wouldn't be the least bit worried about dechlorinator, and would probably do exactly like Ted Judy, or at the very most use a weak sodium thiosulfate solution for water changes, and for cleaning media. I don't have plants to help remove free ammonia (NH3) which is also very toxic to fish, so I use a water conditioner that can render NH3 safe for fish (Seachem Safe), because with each water change with chloramine, once the chlorine/ammonia bond is split, free ammonia is left behind.

I also do massive water changes in the 80-90% range, and I have high pH, and at the higher pH values free ammonia becomes a lot more toxic to fish. Add higher temps to that equation and things become even more deadly, if one isn't careful. I hesitate to even mention how large of water changes I do, so as not to influence someone that keeps more sensitive species, or doesn't understand their own personal limitations, like I do. I have kept species of fish in the past where 30% water changes were pretty much the breaking point for their stress level, so that's as high as I went.

This is why is it so important to for each & every hobbyist to understand their limitations, with their set ups, and their fish, and then live by those limitations.



If someone feels that the chlorine and/or chloramine coming out of their taps won't cause any issues in their set ups, or their bio-media, then by all means go for it. Good luck.

I completely agree about each hobbyist knowing their own system inside out and knowing what they can get away with. Like you, I somewhat break the fishkeeping code a little when washing my mechanical filtration. I totally blast it under the cold water tap and don't give a monkeys about my BB that's in there. On the other hand, my bio side is treated better than my kids!

It's a little disconcerting though don't you think that a newbie that comes to the forum may read about what the more experienced guys are doing and tries to employ their practises in their own maintainance schedule, falsely believing, and with potentially catastrophic results, that they are doing wonders. It's frightening really.

PS. You were lying when you said you can't even build a shed weren't you?

 

[RD.]

t's a little disconcerting though don't you think that a newbie that comes to the forum may read about what the more experienced guys are doing and tries to employ their practises in their own maintainance schedule, falsely believing, and with potentially catastrophic results, that they are doing wonders. It's frightening really.

Yes, that's why I feel that more experienced hobbyists, need to sometimes qualify their statements, or say nothing at all. I can't tell you how many times over the years I have read where someone has posted that to treat tap water, you use 1 capful of Prime per 50 gallons. Hundreds of times for sure, possibly thousands. And somehow they know that, by internet osmosis, because 99% of the time the person asking has absolutely no idea what their disinfectant residual at their taps is, or for that matter if their municipality uses chlorine, chloramine, or both, during different parts of the year. Which is why I posted the following here on MFK, back in 2010.

Cost Effective Water Conditioners

This subject came up recently in another discussion & I felt that it deserved its own thread. Hopefully it will help give some members a better understanding about water conditioners in general, and more importantly help save them some of their hard earned money. The only way that...

www.monsterfishkeepers.com

PS. You were lying when you said you can't even build a shed weren't you?

Not really, at least not if I wanted the 4 sides to be straight and true. lol

 

[Arthur11]

If you find uneaten foods in your fish tank, it means that you are giving too many foods that the fish can take. Remember that uneaten food is one of the sources of ammonia, which means you can reduce the amount of food you give to the fish. Doing this action will eliminate all foods that are not eaten and will subsequently reduce opportunities for the ammonia levels to rise.