How to lower ammonia?

[squint]

0.2 to 0.4 is a joke, most of the chlorine would be gone before the water reached the sponge that Ted was cleaning. lol I can tell you first hand what happens when you rinse sponges in 2 ppm chloramine, most of the bio-bacteria ends up like Niki's fish - DEAD.

 

[Rocksor]

View attachment 1390432

Where's the table for chloramine?

 

[squint]

Where's the table for chloramine?

That is the table for chloramine.

 

[squint]

 

[RD.]

C'mon dude, we have been down this path before, posting info like that out of context without ALL of the study, equates to junk science.

Numerous researchers over the years have documented that nitrification is more common during the warmer months. Most strains of nitrifiers grow optimally at temperatures between 25 and 30C (Watson, Valos, and Waterbury, 1981) although nitrification has occurred over a wide range of temperatures (8-26C) (Kirmeyer et al. 1995).

In the winter months, which seems to be most of the year where I live, very few if any nitrifyers would survive the water temperature.

In Australia, where squint's first paper was from, different story.

This is exactly why I hate wide sweeping generalizations. Mr. Poret foam does this, and he's a well educated long term aquarist, so surely his experience becomes fact. This is apparently the type of misinformation that squint seems to despise, but for the sake of arguing with me (about most anything) he jumps in just to attempt to prove me wrong, about nitrifyers, and the toxicity of chloramine. Ok-dokey. lol

Oh my, too funny. I'm the original skeptic, and my comments are mostly based on first hand experience, the same as those that are for some reason attempting to prove me wrong. I don't get it, but at the end of the day not my problem either.

This is such a complex topic that it is well beyond the scope of the average hobbyist, including myself for a lot of it.

My focus is generally on chloramine, as it seems to be what most areas in North America have switched to, or are in the process of switching to, and it tends to remain at near full strength while in the system. I believe that Duane once said that when tested after 1 week their sample was still at 100% full strength. The water treatment supervisor here told me in the past that a similar test showed the same, full strength after 2 weeks in a glass jar. Chloramine does not break down nearly as quickly as chlorine. How much and how fast that break down takes place will vary among distribution systems based on numerous factors.

Yes, nitrifying bacteria can be present in distribution systems, how much if any will again vary greatly dependent on numerous factors. Yes, nitrifying bacteria need ammonia to be present in order to thrive, in some distribution systems ammonia will be naturally present, in other systems ammonia will only become present via the decomposition of chloramine. (once the chlorine/ammonia bond has split) This is precisely why one of the most common ways to resolve nitrifying bacteria in a distribution system, is to increase the level of disinfectant. In some cases water utilities will form chloramines as a strategy to remove naturally occurring ammonia in the raw water supply, while others may use breakpoint chlorination.

Chloramine kills nitrifying bacteria. Chlorine kills nitrifying bacteria. Both are oxidizing agents that are not bacteria friendly, and not fish friendly. I think that we can all agree on that. These are not facts based on hobbyist hyperbole, but facts based in hard data supplied by scientists who specialize in this field. Many hobbyists have seen the results first hand, tanks that keep going into a mini cycle, and/or dead fish.


The only real questions left are how much, and how long? This is where disinfectant type, residual levels, and contact time all come into play.
Obviously someone like Dr. Tanner with such a low disinfectant residual doesn't have any issues, he could probably spray the water in while refilling his tanks and not even have an issue if he didn't use a water conditioner. At least in an established tank full of organics, and the volume of incoming water wasn't too great. Many people have stated that they do just that, and have for many years. For those folks, disinfectant becomes a non issue.

But that doesn't mean that someone on a different system, with disinfectant residuals several times higher (at the tap) could safely do the same thing. Again, residual disinfectant levels, contact time while cleaning, as well as how established ones bio-media is, will determine how safe tap water is to use, or not.

This type of discussion reminds me of many others posted here and elsewhere over the years, where hobbyists are asking how much water conditioner they should use (often Prime), and others will chime in stating 1 capful per 50 gallons, as somehow through internet magic they know the OP's water parameters, including their local water treatment plant disinfection levels, or the residual level at the OP's taps. One capful per 50 gallons, as everyone should know, is based on a specific amount of disinfectant residual. It amazes me that many hobbyists still do not understand that basic element in adding tap water to their tanks. Many under-dose, and I think that it's safe to say that many overdose. The reality of overdosing issues, causing 02 depletion, is why Seachem dumbed down their recommended dose 3 years ago.

And finally, there are systems that during part of the year use chloramine, and part of the year use chlorine, sometimes even different sources of water. And there are systems that are currently on chlorine, but are switching over to chloramine.

This topic has never been answered with a one size fits all.


And on that note, impossible to say with any real certainty, Ben. If the tank had enough decor (gravel, wood, skulls lol, etc) and the bio load itself wasn't too high, one might be ok. With a large bio load (fish/food) and a bare tank, the tank will most likely crash. Same result when certain meds are added to a tank, even an established tank. Been there, done that, and in my case it wasn't what I would consider a mini cycle. Some bio bacteria most likely survived the meds, but the majority were clearly wiped out. The problem with nitriying bacteria is at least from my understanding they don't multiply nearly as fast as we would like. Having some back up established media can sometimes be a real blessing.

http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

"Nitrifying bacteria reproduce by binary division. Under optimal conditions, Nitrosomonas may double every 7 hours and Nitrobacter every 13 hours. More realistically, they will double every 15-20 hours. This is an extremely long time considering that heterotrophic bacteria can double in as short a time as 20 minutes. In the time that it takes a single Nitrosomonas cell to double in population, a single E. Coli bacterium would have produced a population exceeding 35 trillion cells."

Ummm, yeah, sure, whatever. How toxic becomes irrelevant after the fact. It's like saying a little second hand smoke is only a little toxic to infants.

Both chlorine & chloramine are toxic to nitrifying bacteria, the only difference is that as chloramine breaks down in a distribution system free ammonia is produced, which allows nitrifying bacteria (that feed off of ammonia) to populate in slow moving areas, such as holding tanks etc.

I already explained all of this several pages back. Maybe post some more irrelevant scientific links to irrelevant scientific papers. lol

Ring any bells? Like I said, I am speaking from first hand experience. Not some snippet from a paper. Exposure to Chloramine @ 2 ppm will kill bio-bacteria, just as it will kill fish.

 

[RD.]

Now allow me to share some REAL WORLD experience, not some paper that a small snippet has been selected, in order to prove your point. Or a video on youtube, from someone who may have next to nothing for disinfectant residual coming out of their tap.

Buddy calls me a few years back, large well established tank 300+ gallons, fairly well established filters, and some fancy expensive fish. He is having cloudy water issues. I go to his home, check the water parameters, tank is going into a cycle, so I ask him when he last cleaned his bio-media (2 FX 6's) turns out the "issue" started right after he washed all of his FX sponges etc with room temp water, in his laundry room tub, just like the one Ted showed in his video. Tap water is the exact same source as mine @ 2 ppm chloramine. I explained to him why washing his filter media, including sponges, under our tap water was not a good idea. Sure, some bacteria survive, but a large portion get killed off. This is NOT 0.2 ppm chlorine, it's 2.0 ppm chloramine, and it's toxic at those levels. This was not my first rodeo with chloramine toxicity.

No need for a lab coat, or a team of researchers that wrote a paper on water distribution systems.

In an aquarium, aquatic organisms, as well as the life forms that support them, will not survive if the disinfectant residual rate is high enough, or the exposure time is long enough.

Common sense, or so I thought.

 

[squint]

Nitrification rates and survival are not the same thing

Optimum growth temperature does not mean there is no growth outside that range.

One study is from Finland and found nitrifying bacteria there.

Another seeded a research reactor with tap water in Bozeman, MT.

Even if you manage to prove that nitrifying bacteria can't survive in northern climes, you state that your friend washed his filter in room temperature water...

 

[RD.]

Lol, and your point is? Paper beats rock?


An aquarium isn’t a test tube, nor is it a water distribution system.

Keep reading......

 

[RD.]

Evidence of nitrification. Meaning what exactly? 1, 2, maybe 20?

You just don’t get it.

Hopefully those with a dash of common sense will choose to err on the side of caution.

Good luck

 

[squint]

Nitrification means nitrifying bacteria are surviving at those temperatures/chloramine levels.

Lack of nitrification doesn't necessarily mean they're dead. The best method is to culture them which is what several of the studies did.

If they can live in 5-8 mg/L of chloramine, a brief exposure to 2 mg/L probably isn't going to harm them.