Juggernaut and New Female (Midas)
- Thread starter kenC56
- Start date
Good luck getting these two to spawn, should make some impressive offspring.
Yes, head size in males tends to shrink once spawning begins. A common occurrence with male flowerhorns as well.
Some interesting reading on the subject of nuchal hump size in male midas in the following link.
http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=145
Yes, head size in males tends to shrink once spawning begins. A common occurrence with male flowerhorns as well.
Some interesting reading on the subject of nuchal hump size in male midas in the following link.
http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=145
Great read RD. Problem is Ken and I might have a pair of males that actually disprove some of this. We have aunique situation as our guys are both brothers and were the dominent males from their batch. Unfortunantly we have not been able to compare water quality, but here are some of the facts.
Juggernaught - Hump size is larger and is more slender. 10"
Junior - Hump is smaller, but fish is thicker 12" plus.
After talking talking to Ken I saw some differences that might play a part in his Nuchal Hump and agression.
1. Feeding. Ken was feeding his fish only a few pellets a day while I mine a lot more(no joking about his weight, he is sensitive)pellets, flakes, bloodworms, ect. Reason being I have a large community(Pretty much a full ecosystem) in my tank while he has his guy with just a couple others. When Ken got his female I told him to up feedings to help with agression. At the same time I slowed down on feedings with my male and even skipped pellets a few days. His hump swelled up and he became significantly more aggressive, while Ken informed me his male calmed down more with the female and his hump shrunk a bit. I am not so sure after all the Midas I have had if it truely is a sign of dominance anymore, but perhaps a sign of how they may be feeling such as aggression. The more aggressive the Midas' mood is, possibly the larger the hump of the fish. My guy is content to just watch and occasionally bite the glass while Ken's is a true glass banger. Ken's male attacks through the glass non stop while mine waits until I actually mess with his tank.
2. Females and Breeding
I honestly can't wait until Ken's pair breeds, then we can see how he will look after and how it compares to the research in the article. The male in my avatar had a large hump when not breeding and when solo then with his female. Now the parents of our guys were a different story. The male never had a descent sized hump, while the female's hump grew to the size of a ping pong ball right before breeding. Ken saw her right before her second breeding, so he can vouch for that. It would then shrink down to a slight hump after breeding. Also, she was a lot more aggressive durring this time. We agree that Juggernaut gets his looks from his momma lol.
3. Possibly a trait morph in the hobby.
I also notice that Rapp's Midas(You can see them in his vendor section) and ours look a lot different and not many have humps that are even close to either of our males. Might be the way they are raised, possibly a morph after being 2 generations removed from the wild since these guys seem to be broader and stalkier in build. Another thought is A. Labiatus loose their lips through generations in captivity. Perhaps A. Citrinellus do the same thing, just with another feature such as build and nuchal hump. The hump may be fatty initially, but I definently think the majority is water. Otherwise these fish would not be able to grow/shrink these things at will. Again, I think part of it is how the fish is feeling. If the fish is sure of itself, aggressive, or generally really healthy I notice males and females will have them.
ok from my experience i have gotten some of those supposed midas from dan sharifi and they are midevil not pure costa rican parents like he said but i have had midas for years like smitty said she looks crossed i have tons of midas offspring and they dont look like that here is a prime example two of my females 
I personally think that it's a bit naive to think that one can simply eye ball a citinenellus, or labiatus for that matter, and determine it's genetic make up, especially considering that most of the experts who work with these species in their native environment have to often rely on DNA. Please read the following discussion for more info on that subject.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...f-citrinellus-A-potential-case-of-F1-Midevils
There are scores of different fish that fall under the Midas complex in the wild, and obviously not all of them share the same physical characteristics.
Hi Scott - there is no argument that a pissed off male midas will generally have a larger hump, than if he was not pissed off. lol The same applies to flowerhorn, where the genetics of midas were used to create the massive humps in that strain of fish. The more aggressive and/or dominant a midas is, the larger the hump becomes. None of what you have experienced contradicts what George Barlow et al determined years ago when studying these fish, in the wild, and in the laboratory.
Restricting food may agitate a male midas causing a gain in nuchal hump size, but restrict that diet for too long & over the long haul the fish will suffer in hump size, just as it would in overall size/weight etc.
Ask any midas or flowerhorn breeder & they will all tell you the same thing, generally a males hump will increase during pair formation with a female, and shrink once spawning begins. This is very common. Just keep in mind that overall nuchal hump size is mostly based on the genetics of the fish. And as previously mentioned, large nuchal humps mostly consist of water, not fat, as some people think. As you stated these fish would not be able to grow/shrink their humps at will if they mostly consisted of fat. In the flowerhorn world they refer to large nuchal humps as "water koks".
As far as possibly being a trait/morph in hobby fish - what you are seeing in size & stature in the hobby is often due to the massive amount of food that many hobbyists feed their fish on a daily basis, for years - something that no wild citrinellus would ever experience in the wild. I have yet to see a single photo of a wild caught specimen that looks even remotely close in size & build compared to most of the citrinellus kept in the hobby. Also, the fish brought in from Jeff were photos of recent imports, I've seen before & after pics of a number of his wild cits & labs that most defintely massed up in both body size & nuchal hump size once in captivity for a while. Labiatus lose their lips in captivity, as those lips are only formed in the wild due to their specialized feeding technique of feeding on invertebrates and crustaceans found within the rock crannies. There's really no comparison to this situation.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...f-citrinellus-A-potential-case-of-F1-Midevils
There are scores of different fish that fall under the Midas complex in the wild, and obviously not all of them share the same physical characteristics.
Hi Scott - there is no argument that a pissed off male midas will generally have a larger hump, than if he was not pissed off. lol The same applies to flowerhorn, where the genetics of midas were used to create the massive humps in that strain of fish. The more aggressive and/or dominant a midas is, the larger the hump becomes. None of what you have experienced contradicts what George Barlow et al determined years ago when studying these fish, in the wild, and in the laboratory.
Restricting food may agitate a male midas causing a gain in nuchal hump size, but restrict that diet for too long & over the long haul the fish will suffer in hump size, just as it would in overall size/weight etc.
Ask any midas or flowerhorn breeder & they will all tell you the same thing, generally a males hump will increase during pair formation with a female, and shrink once spawning begins. This is very common. Just keep in mind that overall nuchal hump size is mostly based on the genetics of the fish. And as previously mentioned, large nuchal humps mostly consist of water, not fat, as some people think. As you stated these fish would not be able to grow/shrink their humps at will if they mostly consisted of fat. In the flowerhorn world they refer to large nuchal humps as "water koks".
As far as possibly being a trait/morph in hobby fish - what you are seeing in size & stature in the hobby is often due to the massive amount of food that many hobbyists feed their fish on a daily basis, for years - something that no wild citrinellus would ever experience in the wild. I have yet to see a single photo of a wild caught specimen that looks even remotely close in size & build compared to most of the citrinellus kept in the hobby. Also, the fish brought in from Jeff were photos of recent imports, I've seen before & after pics of a number of his wild cits & labs that most defintely massed up in both body size & nuchal hump size once in captivity for a while. Labiatus lose their lips in captivity, as those lips are only formed in the wild due to their specialized feeding technique of feeding on invertebrates and crustaceans found within the rock crannies. There's really no comparison to this situation.
LOL, here we go again. All in good fun though.
Your talking to a "Midas Breeder". This will be my 4th pair of Midas that I will breeding when my female arrives Friday from Jeff, not to mention all the countless people I have helped advice to get theirs to also do the deed. Bred A. Trimaculatus as well. I would actually go 50/50 on the genitics, but the other half would have to be care. If you look at their parents, our guys look nothing like them. Larger humps, better coloration, broader build. I will get into that more in the next paragraph, but you get the point. Always keen agreed with the "water kok" term, but will never refer to humps on Midas as such.
Actually half the Midas you are seeing are F1's. The top half of his photos are wild, bottom half are F1's. Even then you see that most of the F1's are broader then the F0's. Only a couple in his pictures look the as broad as the F1's. Seen those countless pictures too, and even though any F0 will bulk up, their build still doesn't fully match the builds of captive bred specimens. He has put countless A. Citrinellus pictures up there and taken down which I have compared. And even though you may think it doesn't compare, it actually just may. Perhaps since they don't need to evade predators they can get chunkier. I have yet to see a F0 from the lakes with a hump like captive bred Midas. I could even throw in A. Zaliousus. I had a F1 from Jeff that was without a doubt the thickest I have seen. So perhaps when removed from the wild, they can go through a change just as any animal removed from one habitat and moved to another. A final comparison would be the Parents of our guys who were F1's. They are broader built, larger humps, and coloration is many times better then their parents. Feel free to compare videos to see for yourself, there are almost no similarities.
The disprove was concerning mainly the females. They can develop humps as large and sometimes larger then males during courtship. Also, I would venture to say that the actual hump is around 95% water which explains why they can go from no hump, to massive hump, to no hump pretty much at will.
Your talking to a "Midas Breeder". This will be my 4th pair of Midas that I will breeding when my female arrives Friday from Jeff, not to mention all the countless people I have helped advice to get theirs to also do the deed. Bred A. Trimaculatus as well. I would actually go 50/50 on the genitics, but the other half would have to be care. If you look at their parents, our guys look nothing like them. Larger humps, better coloration, broader build. I will get into that more in the next paragraph, but you get the point. Always keen agreed with the "water kok" term, but will never refer to humps on Midas as such.
Actually half the Midas you are seeing are F1's. The top half of his photos are wild, bottom half are F1's. Even then you see that most of the F1's are broader then the F0's. Only a couple in his pictures look the as broad as the F1's. Seen those countless pictures too, and even though any F0 will bulk up, their build still doesn't fully match the builds of captive bred specimens. He has put countless A. Citrinellus pictures up there and taken down which I have compared. And even though you may think it doesn't compare, it actually just may. Perhaps since they don't need to evade predators they can get chunkier. I have yet to see a F0 from the lakes with a hump like captive bred Midas. I could even throw in A. Zaliousus. I had a F1 from Jeff that was without a doubt the thickest I have seen. So perhaps when removed from the wild, they can go through a change just as any animal removed from one habitat and moved to another. A final comparison would be the Parents of our guys who were F1's. They are broader built, larger humps, and coloration is many times better then their parents. Feel free to compare videos to see for yourself, there are almost no similarities.
