The build of the midas is probably a combination of natural selection and living conditions. For example in the wild guppies with no predators present display more colors versus guppies in environments with no predators present. Natural selection takes out the color. For midas natural selection would most likely take out big headed colorful males. In captivity we choose mates for females, females have no choice who they get to breed with. In captivity we also choose the biggest headed most dominant fish to raise. Combine this with a steady diet and you get massive headed beast compared to their wild counter parts.
Juggernaut and New Female (Midas)
- Thread starter kenC56
- Start date
Exactly.
Scott - for the most part we are in complete agreement. Yes, we know that larger humps, such as Ken's male, is mostly comprised of water. This is a known fact, no argument there.
See Ken's post above, this explains why in captivity some females will end up with larger than normal humps. Clearly large humped females is not the norm, anymore than massive humps on males such as Ken's fish are the norm, in wild fish, or domestic. It also explains why many of the domestic bred males have larger humps than what one typically sees in the wild. You can state 50/50 on genetics and/or care, but the bottom line is if the genetics aren't there it doesn't matter how great of care one gives to their fish, they aren't going to end up with a nuchal hump like Ken's male. That fish is clearly an anomaly, something rarely seen in any pure citrinellus.
Right, I agree. You can see the same thing in countless other species of domestic bred & raised cichlids as well. As previously stated, what you are seeing in size & stature in the hobby is often due to the massive amount, and quality, of food that many hobbyists feed their fish on a daily basis, for years - something that no wild citrinellus would ever experience in the wild. Add to that selective breeding, and you have the potential for almost every F1 offspring to surpass their parents in overall size & stature.
Agreed Ken. However remember their father did not have much of a hump at all. Also their parents had the same care they recieved, but came no where close in development.
Agreed
Obviously The genetics was there. I am very familiar with the genetics as I owned both his parents and still own his big brother. In any Citrinellus you will have the genetics. However, its bringing them into captivity and putting them into an environment with the proper care that brings it out. As Ken and I have compared notes, there are differences in care and environment with the brothers. When care was changed, the appearances of both started to change. Which has shown that just because you power feed your fish doesn't mean they will grow a large hump. Both fish went their own way in development, which probably is on account by care and environment. One grew larger, normal hump, and is less aggressive. The other is smaller, enormous hump, and is very aggressive.
Agreed.
Scott ........ While the genes may be present, in fish those genes tend to express themselves in different ways, in different offspring, even if all of the offspring are directly related, and even if the environment for all of those fish is identical. This is a simple genetic fact, there's no argument, no debate.
Two unrelated citrinellus with small nuchal humps could produce a large proportion of males that have massive humps, some males that have massive humps and other males that do not, or an entire batch of males that have very small nuchal humps. It's random, and the only way that one can ever truly know what the resulting fry of any cichlid pairing will turn out like is by breeding them & raising all of the offspring to sexual maturity.
As I previously stated, Ken's fish is an anomaly, that size of nuchal hump is clearly not something that one generally sees in pure citrinellus. If you raised out hundreds of offspring from those same two parent breeders chances are you may not have had another male that grew a hump of those proportions.
No one is saying that if you power feed a midas that it will grow a large hump, not myself, and not George Barlow. Speaking of which, I believe that I have read every paper/study that George Barlow has written on this subject, some of them several times over, along with most other papers that involve the genetics of A. citrinellus. If you haven't read his various work in this area you really should, it's fascinating stuff.
Female is a costa rican cit. I guess everyones entitled to their opinion and thats what makes this a great hobby but even within species there are variations until the fish hit full size, and then they all don't look the same. Beautiful male though.
RD, You are opening a whole new can of worms. I honestly enjoy this debate, but it is now starting to take away from Ken's thread. By that I mean we are "derailing it". I should have seen it sooner, but last night was a busy one and you got me lol. So we will continue this debate via PM's as to not further derail the thread. I already see another one coming.
I don't really see the derail, no one had posted in this thread since Ken did back on the 12th, until I bumped it up yesterday.
My main reason for posting was to give a congrats to Ken on his new female, and to point out to the naysayers of this female how ludicrous it is to think that one can simply look at a digital image posted on a forum, and start splitting hairs about the DNA make up of a citrinellus, vs a cross with a labiatus. (midevil) As though posting some photos of their citrinellus females proves anything. Bizarre .....
I've also seen most if not all of the WC photos from Rapps imports over the years of both cits & labs, and the F1's, and have a lot of them downloaded to my HD for future reference. Ditto to other wild imports of both species, as well as images of those collected in the wild by researchers. I also know some of the people that bought some of those various imported wild specimens, so I've seen the before & after photos as well.
Not to mention the various recent papers that have been published on the midas complex, and how even the experts state that one cannot simply determine between citrinellus & labiatus by one or two physcial characteristics, such as head shape, lip size, body length, etc. Most of those working in this area believe that there are numerous species within the midas complex that have yet to even be described, and some of these fish do vary greatly from one crater lake to another, and in some cases they even vary (genetics wise) within the same crater lake. I've also corresponded with one of the researchers who is & has been working on the midas complex in CA for some time, so this certainly isn't my first rodeo on this subject.
As an example, take a look at Rapps 10" male that is shown on the same page as the female that you just purchased (congrats on that!) and some people would think that fish was a labiatus, or a midevil, not a pure citrinellus. It's certainly not what many would consider a classic midas look, especially for a 10" male.
The creamsicle midas from Dan looks like the same strain that Conkel sells, and from the ones that I have seen they look as right as rain. They may be domestic raised, pond bred fish, that don't have the exact same look as other midas strains, but that certainly doesn't equate to them not being of pure citrinellus origin.
I look forward to seeing some updates of this pair & hopefully their resulting offspring.
Good luck, Ken!
My main reason for posting was to give a congrats to Ken on his new female, and to point out to the naysayers of this female how ludicrous it is to think that one can simply look at a digital image posted on a forum, and start splitting hairs about the DNA make up of a citrinellus, vs a cross with a labiatus. (midevil) As though posting some photos of their citrinellus females proves anything. Bizarre .....
I've also seen most if not all of the WC photos from Rapps imports over the years of both cits & labs, and the F1's, and have a lot of them downloaded to my HD for future reference. Ditto to other wild imports of both species, as well as images of those collected in the wild by researchers. I also know some of the people that bought some of those various imported wild specimens, so I've seen the before & after photos as well.
Not to mention the various recent papers that have been published on the midas complex, and how even the experts state that one cannot simply determine between citrinellus & labiatus by one or two physcial characteristics, such as head shape, lip size, body length, etc. Most of those working in this area believe that there are numerous species within the midas complex that have yet to even be described, and some of these fish do vary greatly from one crater lake to another, and in some cases they even vary (genetics wise) within the same crater lake. I've also corresponded with one of the researchers who is & has been working on the midas complex in CA for some time, so this certainly isn't my first rodeo on this subject.
As an example, take a look at Rapps 10" male that is shown on the same page as the female that you just purchased (congrats on that!) and some people would think that fish was a labiatus, or a midevil, not a pure citrinellus. It's certainly not what many would consider a classic midas look, especially for a 10" male.
The creamsicle midas from Dan looks like the same strain that Conkel sells, and from the ones that I have seen they look as right as rain. They may be domestic raised, pond bred fish, that don't have the exact same look as other midas strains, but that certainly doesn't equate to them not being of pure citrinellus origin.
I look forward to seeing some updates of this pair & hopefully their resulting offspring.
Good luck, Ken!
we all know that this is not your first rodeo as i stated b4 Mr RD i purchased those same fish from sharifi and their not pure just stating the facts from my experience oh and i think that my picture was a good example and yes very bizarre..... but you keep doing your research 
and conkel is selling trash also back in the day jeff sold some nice midas but not now .........
and conkel is selling trash also back in the day jeff sold some nice midas but not now .........