leiarius marmoratus help

[thebiggerthebetter]

The store I got him from said they had been feeding him sinking dry food,his tank mates are motoro stingray,silver arowana, 2x african knife,green terror,5x silver dollar and 6x clown looach (might move them,going to see how it goes)

You are an experienced keeper. I am sure your water's good and you know what you are doing. I think he will start eating for you soon. There is no reason based on everything in this thread to think otherwise.

From the experience of several keepers I came across, even their 2' Lei never touched 5" clown loaches in a 4'x4' tank.

 

[monsterkeeper87]

I've kept 7 or 8 1.5'-2' "Leiaius marmoratus". IME and that of others, there is some degree of variability in their appearance. But I have never seen one like that and this is the most attractive, I'd say, to me.

I think we should lighten up on the hybrid calling. Does anyone know what Leiarius longibarbis (recently split from L. marmoratus) look like? IDK. I am ~100% positive that none of us has seen it yet. Given that, how can we call it a hybrid?

Albeit it indeed may be a hybrid, it is most prudent to eliminate all of the pure-species candidates first.

As for TSNxLei, it does not look like that. See this for more: http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...4171-TSNxLei-I-think-Could-it-be-P-corruscans

All hybrids are slightly different, I would say this 1 definitely has taken more of a Leiarius appearance but still the colour shading and especially the tail remind me of a fasciatum so I still stick with my opinion of a hybrid. Either way nice fish and I wish you luck with him


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[koltsixx]

You are an experienced keeper. I am sure your water's good and you know what you are doing. I think he will start eating for you soon. There is no reason based on everything in this thread to think otherwise.

From the experience of several keepers I came across, even their 2' Lei never touched 5" clown loaches in a 4'x4' tank.

Even an experienced aquarist can have an unexpected water issue arise and a responsible keeper is always better served being thorough.

Which leads me to a couple of question, why promote being thorough in the id but not in checking every single cause for the perceived problem? Do you think he should just assume his water is good because he's an experienced aquarist? Do you think experienced aquarists don't need to check their water? And why are you telling people to lighten up on calling it a hybrid? Are they not allowed to give their opinion based on what they believe? Isn't it beneficial to get as many experienced peoples opinions as possible in the hopes of a proper id?

By the way just like monsterfishkeeper87 I stick by my original opinion of it being a hybrid. The coloration of all leiarius as far as I've ever seen is brown based and the base is uniform while the fish pictured here has a two tone look to the base coloration a white belly and grey top under the spots similar to a TSN. Between that and the shape of the face I believe it is a hybrid rather then a naturally occuring Leiarius.

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

Thanks, Kolt.

KS: Even an experienced aquarist can have an unexpected water issue arise and a responsible keeper is always better served being thorough.

Which leads me to a couple of question, why promote being thorough in the id but not in checking every single cause for the perceived problem? Do you think he should just assume his water is good because he's an experienced aquarist? Do you think experienced aquarists don't need to check their water?

TBTB: My prior post was not in opposition to yours. At the first sign of problems an experienced aquarist checks his water and double checks it. It is obvious. That's all. But your reminder of that was timely and well placed. No problem.

KS: And why are you telling people to lighten up on calling it a hybrid? Are they not allowed to give their opinion based on what they believe? Isn't it beneficial to get as many experienced peoples opinions as possible in the hopes of a proper id?

TBTB: I said "I think we should...". I didn't say to anyone what to do or not to do. But regardless of that, I sincerely repent and apologize. Please, forgive me.

KS: By the way just like monsterfishkeeper87 I stick by my original opinion of it being a hybrid. The coloration of all leiarius as far as I've ever seen is brown based and the base is uniform while the fish pictured here has a two tone look to the base coloration a white belly and grey top under the spots similar to a TSN. Between that and the shape of the face I believe it is a hybrid rather then a naturally occuring Leiarius.

TBTB: We do not agree here and that is fine too. http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/species.php?species_id=245 -- in none of the 13 pics here does the fish has a uniform base coloration - the lower half is invariably lighter. Moreover, I've seen and owned "acharas" with grey tops and grey-olive spots. The shape of their heads too varies. The coloration of the OP fish is the only thing in my eyes (and given the current state of taxonomy) that is odd, again to me.

 

[koltsixx]

No need for apologies, I was just curious as to your reasoning for the posts. I'm always fine with agreeing to disagree but I'm also always curious about people whose opinion I respects post reasoning, hence the questions.

As for the Lei's I do agree that the color on most cats is invariably lighter but it's been in my experience less pronounced in Lei's then TSN's and usually of a dark beige color versus the white of a TSN. I will fully admit I've only kept 2 Lei's in my life but I've kept 4 Lei/TSN's and their coloration was almost identical to the fish pictured. What's interesting is difference that sticks out to you the most is the coloration while to me it's the shapes and size of the blotches that stand out as being unusual. As most of my hybrids had more thin elongate spotting similar to the TSN pattern then the Lei's(as seen in the pic of my hybrid below), in this case the Lei's pattern seems to be more dominant. That is if this is a hybrid which as I said is only my opinion and I can easily be wrong.

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

KS: No need for apologies, I was just curious as to your reasoning for the posts. I'm always fine with agreeing to disagree but I'm also always curious about people whose opinion I respects post reasoning, hence the questions.

TBTB: It was poorly worded. Lately, I have seen too many "this is a hybrid" labels (without any justification or a straw-man effort whatsoever to show that it may be a hybrid and not some genuine species) freely thrown around here and it looks like it got under the skin of my subconscious mind. Your call is fair. My trying to be polite by using "I think" and "we should" is irrelevant. Besides, I don't expect anyone to care about what I think. That'd be plain silly. If they do, good, at their own risk. If they don't, even better.

KS: As for the Lei's I do agree that the color on most cats is invariably lighter but it's been in my experience less pronounced in Lei's then TSN's and usually of a dark beige color versus the white of a TSN. I will fully admit I've only kept 2 Lei's in my life but I've kept 4 Lei/TSN's and their coloration was almost identical to the fish pictured. What's interesting is difference that sticks out to you the most is the coloration while to me it's the shapes and size of the blotches that stand out as being unusual. As most of my hybrids had more thin elongate spotting similar to the TSN pattern then the Lei's(as seen in the pic of my hybrid below), in this case the Lei's pattern seems to be more dominant. That is if this is a hybrid which as I said is only my opinion and I can easily be wrong.

TBTB: Good food for thought. One correction is that when I said coloration, meant the whole thing, base, spots, shapes, patterns, etc. So again, we are in sync on the unusual "coloration". What's bizarre is that the "coloration" is uneven and asymmetrical and variable within the fish.

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

As a result of this discussion, I've been looking at the fish in a different light and must admit now that it indeed may be a TSNxLei, a strange one but nevertheless. It could be when they cross over from their juvi coloration to the sub-adult coloration. Bottom line, I am more confused. More pics from Iceland, the land of people who affect controversies? Nice clear side shots at a normal angle would be helpful. Here is one of my hybrids:

 

[necrocanis]

Lei hybrids are very problematic because they tend to favor the lei side of the equation more. To such a degree i had doubts when i had my lei x rtc hybrid at first. It looked strikingly similar to a reg lei. Even at a larger size a few still argued that it wasnt a hybrid but the red in its tail and clearly non lei coloration and patterns showed it was. Now that i have the skeletons of all these fish the differences are obvious as well as seeing the intermediate state of morphology in the hybrids and the deformities that occur as a result. I am inclined to think myself that this is a hybrid of lei and tsn that highly favors the lei side of the equation.

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[monsterkeeper87]

Lei hybrids are very problematic because they tend to favor the lei side of the equation more. To such a degree i had doubts when i had my lei x rtc hybrid at first. It looked strikingly similar to a reg lei. Even at a larger size a few still argued that it wasnt a hybrid but the red in its tail and clearly non lei coloration and patterns showed it was. Now that i have the skeletons of all these fish the differences are obvious as well as seeing the intermediate state of morphology in the hybrids and the deformities that occur as a result. I am inclined to think myself that this is a hybrid of lei and tsn that highly favors the lei side of the equation.

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Your lei hybrid sounds awesome, any threads with a pic??


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[thebiggerthebetter]

Lei hybrids are very problematic because they tend to favor the lei side of the equation more. To such a degree i had doubts when i had my lei x rtc hybrid at first. It looked strikingly similar to a reg lei. Even at a larger size a few still argued that it wasnt a hybrid but the red in its tail and clearly non lei coloration and patterns showed it was...

? I hope we are looking at the same thing and just using different words. My impression is that, external appearance-wise, TSNxLei is closer to TSN just like TSNxRTC is closer to TSN, which is the mother species in both hybrids (or so you tell me, Cliff) and that makes it logical, no?

Without exception, whenever I come across a large TSNxLei at any LFS (a return or a trade-in), they are labeled TSN because that's the closest they look to to the LFS owners.

LeixRTC may look so close to Lei because Lei is the maternal species here. Can you confirm or refute that from your database, Mr. Hybrid Catfish Nut In Residence?

Would that reconcile our differences?