Looking for Vieja Hybrids

gamerpond1

Gambusia
MFK Member
Jun 3, 2012
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I'm looking for some pictures of vieja hybrids (no parrots) mainly a cross between Vieja Fenestratus pink and Vieja Synspilum and was wondering if they might resemble red monkey or super red syn since the simalarities are there I'm planning on odering a fenestratus pink male for my female synspilum that has no interest in any amphilophus i barrowed these pics from google

red monkey

vieja synspilum


vieja fenestratus pink
 

izzy_here

Fire Eel
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May 13, 2010
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Wondered about this myself, I suspect you're on to something with this. The only question in my eyes was do they combine any midas in still? I think they must, judging by some of their faces. Oh, and does the amphilophus fader gene interact with the Paraneetropolus fader gene? I think the answer to that is also, it must. Ever see a really high quality pink fen? Why do some of the best red shocks/red monkey's have that same color? And also show some amp in the face head....? I have some syns right now, really considering getting a few pink fens myself.

Also think adding female parrots to that mix somehow would be the way I would choose to add midas genes...although I suppose it doesn't really matter.
 

gamerpond1

Gambusia
MFK Member
Jun 3, 2012
879
5
18
Texas
Wondered about this myself, I suspect you're on to something with this. The only question in my eyes was do they combine any midas in still? I think they must, judging by some of their faces. Oh, and does the amphilophus fader gene interact with the Paraneetropolus fader gene? I think the answer to that is also, it must. Ever see a really high quality pink fen? Why do some of the best red shocks/red monkey's have that same color? And also show some amp in the face head....? I have some syns right now, really considering getting a few pink fens myself.

Also think adding female parrots to that mix somehow would be the way I would choose to add midas genes...although I suppose it doesn't really matter.
Possible see i thought the whole time that it was just a high grade midas and high grade syn and only a few select fry out of the batch. When i saw the fenestratus pinks a couple of months ago and knowing in most flowerhorns there are a mix of three species atleast. I thought maybe this could be the missing link to a real red monkeys/red syns from a thailand breeder or something. I would imagine it does cause all of the parrots and rqs so on go threw a dramatic fade or peeling process before they get their color. That would make sense using the parrots for midas genes considereing they already have vieja genes so that the chance of chromozones lining up for fertile males might increase a little being related, but could have no affect not being the same exact species.
 

izzy_here

Fire Eel
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May 13, 2010
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Syns are funny anyway when it comes to using them in fh etc, even when you use two fish that have a high % of syn it's still questionable wether or not you'll get fertile males. Most species aren't so picky, once you get somewhere close to 65% of the genes matching, you get fertile males, not so with syns.
 

izzy_here

Fire Eel
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May 13, 2010
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Syns belong to a very small super complex within paraneetropolus, this group also includes P. melanurus, some even speculate they're the same species, not sure which others fall within this "super complex"... But I'd be willing to bet you'd have a higher incidence of fertile males if you used only paraneetropolus from this group, I'd love to know if a 50/50 syn melanurus male is fertile. The way con X honduran red point is fertile, seems I read something somewhere about a 50/50 syn/zonatus male being fertile.
 

gamerpond1

Gambusia
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Jun 3, 2012
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isn't it usually a rule for fertility in hybrids to keep the parent species within the tribe making more of a subspecies than a hybrid and i wonder if it might work the same with 65 % percent of the hybrid to be related to one tribe
 

izzy_here

Fire Eel
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May 13, 2010
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Yes, thats sort of what I was getting at in that last post, thats exactly how fertile fh are made. However that doesn't mean that just any two paraneetropolus species are interfertile. Like many of the Amphilophus are. The thing with Amp's is they are all so closely related, most of them belonging to the same complex within the genus. Paraneetropolus not so much, most have genetically diverged from each other way more than Amphilophus. I also believe that syns are one of the worst of the lot for this, I read an article a long time ago (wish I could find it again, I've been trying to find that page again for something like 5 years...) It stated that hybrid syns didn't start to show fertility 'til the strain was 75% syn, and even then only in very small numbers, best fertility in hybrid syns was shown at percentages above 75% purity. The article did not discuss what would happen if you used paraneetropolus that were closely related to syn for the cross. I firmly believe using P. melanurus would produce fertile male young if crossed to a syn, and if it didn't at 50%, it would for sure at 65%
Also consider this. Say you have a 65% pure, fertile hybrid of whatever breed, cross him to yet another breed, cross his daughter back to him, and you'll have fertile males. The fertile, mostly pure part of the strain is acting as the "controlling interest" if you will. It may not be 65% pure anymore, but the genes from...umm, lets say texas for example, will be strong enough to carry the fertility in the strain. This is how a true master creates a fh, bit by bit adding traits. You'd have to do sooooo many lines of each cross to prevent inbreeding depression.

p.s. getting 2 male, 4 female pink fene's this Saturday, I have a few fish I'm considering pairing them to. A female bp, I also have male and female belize syns the same size as the pink fene's, I can't wait!
p.p.s. also getting some carpintis the same size as my syns and fene's, that should spice things up a bit too.
 

gamerpond1

Gambusia
MFK Member
Jun 3, 2012
879
5
18
Texas
you said 75% purity in syns have you read about Mr. chens fortune fish where he took a unfaded red texas that has 25% syn genes and crossed it to a synspilum and came up with fertile males that would still be between 55% and 65% and nice you'll have to post some pics when you get em i can't find very many pics of pink fens
 
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