Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

cvermeulen

Jack Dempsey
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Jun 4, 2007
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SantaMonica;2322289; said:
Yes, you can't do that... will not remove nitrate and phosphate from the system. You can feed a small amount, but most of it needs to be tossed.
Hmmmm, I'm not convinced, really. All you are **really** doing by setting up this algae screen is using the algae as a denitrator.

The nitrogen cycle is basically the process by which several sets of organisms get their energy from available chemicals in the water. your animals digest organic matter and produce NH3, then bacteria digest NH3 and produce NO/N02, more bacteria digest the NO2 and produce NO3. NO3 is like the 'exhaust' of the aquaria world, as it's the lowest energy form - to break it apart or get rid of it, you need to add energy to the system by some means. Sulfur and Alcohol denitrators add energy by supplying microbes with a high energy chemical to use in conjunction with the NO3 so it can break it down and the N2 can be off-gassed.

The way I see it (and I'm no biologist, so anyone feel free to jump in here and correct me), you are supplying the algae with light energy that it uses to process compounds like CO2 and NO3 to produce plant matter and life energy to survive. I don't know where the nitrogen goes, but I'd hazard it either gets off-gassed or gets used in the synthesis of bio mass. If you then take that bio mass and feed it to your pleco in the same system, the cycle begins again. No? I mean obviously you'd be adding other food to the system to feed your other fish, so the amount of nitrogen in the system would accumulate over time - unless all your fish just continued to grow and the nitrogen got used up that way.

*shrug* you're maintaining the screen either way so I guess it's a moot point. I just thought it would be neat to incorporate a way for your algea feeders to access the screen at night or something, so that they would always be well fed, and you'd have a little bit of an ecosystem in place.
 

cvermeulen

Jack Dempsey
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Jun 4, 2007
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I'm going to build one of these this weekend if I can get the lights for cheap, I already have most of the parts. I'm really trying to avoid much more water to air exposure in my setup though, and my sump is pretty tightly fit in the stand so what I'm going to do is put the screen (or plexi, whatever I can find) submerged about 1/2" in the refugium, positioned by the refugium overflow so all the circulating water has to pass over the screen. I'll just put a pair of CF spotlights on it, about 3" from the water's surface and run them 24/7. I don't see why this wouldn't work just as well, but I guess we'll see. This is a fairly recently set up tank, and it has no algae eaters in it - the algae is just starting in the tank, hopefully I can nip it in the bud with this.
 

nfored

Fire Eel
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Apr 4, 2008
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Wouldn't it be much nicer looking to just have your water cycling through a plant filter? That is exactly what this is a plant filter, but with unsightly algae instead of plants.
 

SantaMonica

Plecostomus
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Oct 9, 2008
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375: Negatives of Scrubber:

1. You have to build it yourself (at least currently).
2. Will eventually starve xenia and other fuge macros, unless you start massively overfeeding your tank.
3. Must be cleaned weekly (one half of screen), or results will start declining.
4. Takes up room.
5. Uses power (if pump powered).


cvermeulen:
All you are **really** doing by setting up this algae screen is using the algae as a denitrator
You are also using it for:

Inorganic Phosphate removal
Metals removal
CO2 removal
Oxygen additions
Pods additions
Cooling

I don't know where the nitrogen goes, but I'd hazard it either gets off-gassed or gets used in the synthesis of bio mass
Correct, bio mass.

If you then take that bio mass and feed it to your pleco in the same system, the cycle begins again
Yes but remember many of the organisms/animals in our tanks are already fully grown (hermits, for example), so in these cases the amount of N put into their bodies equals the amount of N leaving their bodies. They are not absorbing anything. Thus something else has to get N out of the tank.

Maybe you saw the half-pound (wet) of algae I removed last week; I could feed all the fish for a week using only one-tenth of that.

I'm really trying to avoid much more water to air exposure in my setup
Then use a box or bucket, and put a lid on it. Evaporation will stop.

or plexi, whatever I can find)
Do use screen, not plexi.

submerged about 1/2" in the refugium, positioned by the refugium overflow so all the circulating water has to pass over the screen.
Keep it just above the waterline, instead of below it. Have the overflow splash down on it.

I'll just put a pair of CF spotlights on it, about 3" from the water's surface and run them 24/7.
24 hours for a week, then switch to 18 on, 6 off.

nfored:

Wouldn't it be much nicer looking to just have your water cycling through a plant filter? That is exactly what this is a plant filter, but with unsightly algae instead of plants.
You are refering to a refugium. Scrubbers are different from a fuge in so many ways:

o Light: There is very little water standing in the way of the light. Also, the light is (or should be) very close to the scrubber... 4" or less. The power of light varies with the square of the distance, so going from 8" to 4" actually gives you 4X the power, not 2X. And the nutrient removal power of algae is proportional to the power of the light, because it's the photosynthesis that is doing the processing.

o Rapid flow: More delivery of nutrients to the scrubber.

o Turbulence: Helps removes the boundary layer of water around the algae. This boundary layer slows the transfer of metabolites in and out of the algae.

o Pulsed Flow: The option of being able to pulse the flow (and use a fan) REALLY helps get rid of the boundary layer of water, and also helps kill the green hair and brown slime that tend to cover up real turf (although green hair and brown slime still do lots of filtering). This is how turf algae grows on the beach, with wind and waves.

o Surface Area: When you clean/scrape a screen, the surface area is not reduced like it is with fuge macros or plants.

o Traps no waste/food like a refugium or DSB does; waste/food flows right past the screen.

o Does not release strands into display, like chaeto.

o Does not go sexual, like caulerpa can.

o Is 1/2 or 1/3 the physical size, for the same processing power.

o Weighs nothing (holds no water), so can be set on regular furniture.

o Cools the water. And if a fan is used, it REALLY cools the water.

o Does not ever produce hydrogen sulfide (rotten eggs), like DSBs or denitrators can.

o Can be set on top of the tank, so pods drain right into tank.

o Is free.

o Is portable.

o Can run two, for backup, in the same space as one fuge.

o Will oxygenate the tank if main return pump goes out, if the scrubber drains into the display.
 

SantaMonica

Plecostomus
MFK Member
Oct 9, 2008
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Reminder of the Day: Proper Flow


While not as important as how strong and near the bulb is, proper flow has shown to help a lot. Before Mrobo770131 on the UR site got things tuned properly, his flow looked like this:




Zennzzo on the MFK site, however, got it perfect from the start:





The trick is to have 35 gph (adjustable) for every inch width of the screen. And this is assuming your waterfall pipe has a slot. If your pipe uses drilled holes (not recommended) then you will use less.
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cvermeulen

Jack Dempsey
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Jun 4, 2007
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Wow, thanks for taking the time to thoroughly address everyone's concerns. I had a couple of points left over still though.

SantaMonica;2326666; said:
You are also using it for:

Inorganic Phosphate removal
Metals removal
CO2 removal
Oxygen additions
Pods additions
Cooling
Well, I'm talking FW, and my tanks are warmer than my house, so maybe I still get some benefit from the metal removal and counter-aerobic activity, but the 99% motivator is NO3. I've got an almost built sulfur denitrator ready to go, and it's a tossup which one to use. This one seems so easy though, and so untested in FW that I kinda want to give it a go.

SantaMonica;2326666; said:
Yes but remember many of the organisms/animals in our tanks are already fully grown (hermits, for example), so in these cases the amount of N put into their bodies equals the amount of N leaving their bodies. They are not absorbing anything. Thus something else has to get N out of the tank.

Maybe you saw the half-pound (wet) of algae I removed last week; I could feed all the fish for a week using only one-tenth of that.
Fair enough, but again, talking FW monsters, most of mine are not fully grown. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure I'd have to remove a large portion of the algae, I was more thinking of my plecos and snails that like to grind away at the algae between meals. It would be nice for them to have some access to the algae even though it's not growing on the glass.

SantaMonica;2326666; said:
24 hours for a week, then switch to 18 on, 6 off.
Why switch, ever? Does the algae need a dark period? I wouldn't think so, but again, I'm not a biologist.
 

SantaMonica

Plecostomus
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Oct 9, 2008
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Ah, did not know FW. Well I guess you could have the very bottom of the screen accesible to the fish to each, and that way they could not eat too much. Enclose the screen in a box, and that will end the cooling. If you don't want to use a box, then reduce the size of the screen (less surface area for cooling), and use more/stronger lights and higher flow to compensate.

Yes the algae needs about 6 hours rest.
 

necrocanis

Catfish God
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I'd like to know zen's results! He's had it up for almost 3 days now. Showing any algae now? Start testing and recording your results so that we can all learn for the FW side of things.
 

Potts050

Jack Dempsey
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Aug 15, 2006
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" Turbulence: Helps removes the boundary layer of water around the algae. This boundary layer slows the transfer of metabolites in and out of the algae." -Santamonica in an earlier post.

Just thought I should mention that the boundary layer in a fluid system can never be removed. Even at tremendous flow velocities, it will only become thinner, never actually disapearing. Turbulence does however have the benefit of capturing dissolved carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and transfering it to the boundary layer, where it can move across by osmosis, to become available to the algae/moss culture. Too much turbulence, or flow velocity will stress or damage the culture.

There is a greater amount of carbon dioxide available in the atmosphere than in water, and depending on the carbonate hardness of your water supply, and the time of day, your tank may have only a growth limiting amount available. Carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is roughly 387 ppm ( by volume )and aproximately 120 ppm in aquarium water ( by weight). It stands to reason that you would want to expose the culture to as much air as possible without drying it out in order to maximize it's growth.

This can best be achieved with laminar flow across the culture at low velocities. In this way, carbon dioxide can diffuse directly across the boundary layer to the culture and oxygen in the reverse direction. Just my two cents worth......
 
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