The snout is quite frequently damaged in captivity. I don't think it can be used reliably as a trait. I am a bit lost in the intricacies of your analysis of (all?) the piraibas coming, staying, and going in your country 
Teasing. Still, with so much info and back and forth conclusions, I must admit I am lost at the moment, short of dedicating a couple of hours sorting through your journal with no guaranteed success.
***Agree, mine is in the 120g tank, kinda small for him now but will transfer after he reached 12" to reduce future snout damage. But 1 of my friend have the same piraiba from the same batch. He kept it in a large tank but it also loses the snout curvature. Pic:
Its okay to be lost, I'm currently lost too. There's always changes & I have to update every time, back & forth my previous claim. I saw what other people fail to see but so hard explaining it by words. The info I've put through are still not definitive tho.
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That's the most important thing in my mind. Knowing exactly where the fish was collected, at least the country if not the river. Not a guess. Not a likely. Not a maybe. Not an "I think" or "I believe". But for sure. This must be the basis and the cornerstone of all scientific and pseudoscientific analysis. IMHO. Otherwise, the conclusions will forever be haunted as questionable. No if's or but's about it. If the origin is unknown with certainty, there could be allowed to be a third group of specimen, but only as a supplemental material, not the knowledge base.
In your analyses, these specimen are mixed. Hence, I am lost what to consider reliable and what not and what is in between.
***Will get the answer ASAP. As I stated, my info still not definitive. Mostly theory but oh how I wish I could go to SA to study the fish myself LOL. The inaccuracies killing me.
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As I described IME, the two Peru piraiba from Mark Chen of Discus Origins, Ocala, Florida, USA, have always been different color in my hands except the first day. I think it simply may reflect the dominance factor.
***Yes, it may reflect on dominance factor but when the "Unknown" aka White Shovel Head (how bout I just all it that) in the dark base pond, it lives by itself, no other fish in there except for a few feeders. He remains light colored, contradict of what happened to the Peru. Also, the Unknown with snout defects in the youtube video lives in a dark tank, yet still remains light colored. FYI, the video are the same guy I bought the died-full spotted Suriname or Leopard (lets call it that, way shorter). See post #53, the Leopard, still in his care, have dark base colored.
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The only difference I see right away is the base color. Everything else seems the same.
***Maybe from the video doesn't show significant differences, but when see it upfront, you can tell it right away. As stated, I saw what people fail to see. I saw different head, different body depth, etc.
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That to me doesn't look natural but I'd think it had been damaged some time ago and healed up. As for the non-damaged mouth shape, I'd think the dorsal head shots would be required. Plus knowing the origin for sure.
***The tip of Rpul's & fishtankphil's Suriname also have slight bent like this. That's why I concluded that Suriname most likely be like this. Because they are the 2 people (that I know of) that have kept juvenile Suriname.
The Leopard are from Suriname, the shop owner told me (before it was purchase from the guy that sold me the Leopard). There's also difference in price range. As I been told before, any Suriname shipment kinda expensive. So the 12" Leopard (12" at that time) are priced at 666usd (converted). The upcoming 7" Leopard are priced at 450usd. Way more expensive than 100-150usd price range of common Peru.
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Sorry to hear. Stress could be considered. The size disparity was large and the smaller piraiba was afraid (from the video) of the bigger one. I doubt though the stress killed it. Just a complicating factor.
***Indeed it is a doubt, the Leopard doesn't have trouble eating. The video is on the 3rd day, he eats well on the 4th, died on 6th. A few hours before death, he swims behind the big guy as usual, I didn't see any unusual behavior. My best guess was probably temperature swing. Previous owner kept in house, my tank are outside but I don't remember if that day was hot or not.
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See above. Do you now the origin for 100% sure?
***Yes, the shop owner told me, as stated above.
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Understood. I am asking for my own understanding. Not trying to poke holes in your endeavour for me or others to see. You can see I usually have no problem acknowledging being confused, which in part or sometimes in entirety is my fault.
***Understandable, but there's no simple ways to put this. It is best to experience it upfront
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Tonights photos: The "Unknown"
Teasing. Still, with so much info and back and forth conclusions, I must admit I am lost at the moment, short of dedicating a couple of hours sorting through your journal with no guaranteed success.***Agree, mine is in the 120g tank, kinda small for him now but will transfer after he reached 12" to reduce future snout damage. But 1 of my friend have the same piraiba from the same batch. He kept it in a large tank but it also loses the snout curvature. Pic:
Its okay to be lost, I'm currently lost too. There's always changes & I have to update every time, back & forth my previous claim. I saw what other people fail to see but so hard explaining it by words. The info I've put through are still not definitive tho.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the most important thing in my mind. Knowing exactly where the fish was collected, at least the country if not the river. Not a guess. Not a likely. Not a maybe. Not an "I think" or "I believe". But for sure. This must be the basis and the cornerstone of all scientific and pseudoscientific analysis. IMHO. Otherwise, the conclusions will forever be haunted as questionable. No if's or but's about it. If the origin is unknown with certainty, there could be allowed to be a third group of specimen, but only as a supplemental material, not the knowledge base.
In your analyses, these specimen are mixed. Hence, I am lost what to consider reliable and what not and what is in between.
***Will get the answer ASAP. As I stated, my info still not definitive. Mostly theory but oh how I wish I could go to SA to study the fish myself LOL. The inaccuracies killing me.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I described IME, the two Peru piraiba from Mark Chen of Discus Origins, Ocala, Florida, USA, have always been different color in my hands except the first day. I think it simply may reflect the dominance factor.
***Yes, it may reflect on dominance factor but when the "Unknown" aka White Shovel Head (how bout I just all it that) in the dark base pond, it lives by itself, no other fish in there except for a few feeders. He remains light colored, contradict of what happened to the Peru. Also, the Unknown with snout defects in the youtube video lives in a dark tank, yet still remains light colored. FYI, the video are the same guy I bought the died-full spotted Suriname or Leopard (lets call it that, way shorter). See post #53, the Leopard, still in his care, have dark base colored.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only difference I see right away is the base color. Everything else seems the same.
***Maybe from the video doesn't show significant differences, but when see it upfront, you can tell it right away. As stated, I saw what people fail to see. I saw different head, different body depth, etc.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That to me doesn't look natural but I'd think it had been damaged some time ago and healed up. As for the non-damaged mouth shape, I'd think the dorsal head shots would be required. Plus knowing the origin for sure.
***The tip of Rpul's & fishtankphil's Suriname also have slight bent like this. That's why I concluded that Suriname most likely be like this. Because they are the 2 people (that I know of) that have kept juvenile Suriname.
The Leopard are from Suriname, the shop owner told me (before it was purchase from the guy that sold me the Leopard). There's also difference in price range. As I been told before, any Suriname shipment kinda expensive. So the 12" Leopard (12" at that time) are priced at 666usd (converted). The upcoming 7" Leopard are priced at 450usd. Way more expensive than 100-150usd price range of common Peru.
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Sorry to hear. Stress could be considered. The size disparity was large and the smaller piraiba was afraid (from the video) of the bigger one. I doubt though the stress killed it. Just a complicating factor.
***Indeed it is a doubt, the Leopard doesn't have trouble eating. The video is on the 3rd day, he eats well on the 4th, died on 6th. A few hours before death, he swims behind the big guy as usual, I didn't see any unusual behavior. My best guess was probably temperature swing. Previous owner kept in house, my tank are outside but I don't remember if that day was hot or not.
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See above. Do you now the origin for 100% sure?
***Yes, the shop owner told me, as stated above.
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Understood. I am asking for my own understanding. Not trying to poke holes in your endeavour for me or others to see. You can see I usually have no problem acknowledging being confused, which in part or sometimes in entirety is my fault.
***Understandable, but there's no simple ways to put this. It is best to experience it upfront
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Tonights photos: The "Unknown"
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