need help in identifying super red arowana

[ausarow]

I am glad you found them of interest. I am an aquaculturalist. i have been producing and selling ornamental fish for around ten years now. spent a considerable amount of time over the past few years researching arowanas. my computer is slowing up now with all the snippets of info i have found. i expect there is a lot of scientific research that has not been revealed but what i have found reveals a lot.

 

[ausarow]

if i had time tonight i would show you another paper. ill try locate it soon.

 

[RD.]

Quote:
You should be able to tell the difference between chilli and blood red

One has a pear shape tail the othe has a fan shape tail
They have diffent body shape one is longer and slimmer
One has more of a spoon head than the other
One has longer peck fins than the other

I don't know which type holds which traits but I'm sure after a bit of reasurch I could tell the difference


Farm cert the higher with more traits they have meaning a fish veered blood or chilli red than a super red as a super red can be a mix of both chilli and blood
Have not seen any icythiologists' work on Red arowanas specifically, it's a pity that there are very few studies done on Asian arowanas. The difficulty is magnified many times because the fishes may not even be found in the wild anymore. I have been very keen to get hold of any research paper on arowanas.
Noone IDs a red based on those features that are mentioned, whether adult or juvenile.

The farms easily alters tail features by slitting the tail of a juvenile red several times after it grows back, until the tail becomes one big fan. Hobbyists like big fan tails.

I've seen many adult Reds, they all look the same in terms of body shape, in fact those in Aquarama that are very red (blood red) have big bodies, not long slim ones. The body shape is determined by the diet and readiness of the fish to eat well, you can't tell whether they are chilli or blood by looking at the body.

Pectoral fins - frankly I have noticed that Gan's reds have very short pects, Emperor Reds have long pecs(these are neither named chilli nor blood). Gan breed his reds from Violet Fusion (Qian Hu) and he has Munjul breeding stocks as well (which is blood red). I've not given much thought to pects as a way to distinguish one from the other so I can't comment. Emperor Reds are orange, they never get red, the winner of Aquarama red section, Ken Yg (a fellow Mod in Arofanatics) won with an Emperor Red - super long pects and beautiful body shape.

What we have been passed down are from something akin to folklore, there has been no scientific basis for arriving at those descriptions. Many of us have seen those descriptions on farm websites, hobbyists posts, etc.

I have briefly seen some Japanese book describe the difference between blood and chilli red. The head differences, and colouring. You know a red develops it's colour slowly, with the red spreading from one end of the body to the other end, usually from the front to the back. According to the book, a chilli red colours from the front to the back, a blood from back to the front. But looking at supposedly branded blood red aros, I see it is not consistent with what the book describes and if so there are no more blood red aros.

If a farm wants to sell their fishes at a higher price, they simply call them blood red. Who can sue them? If the colour is orange and not red after 7 years (it takes 7 years for a red to mature and start breeedin), guess what? The farm will say the owner did not take care of the fish, that's why the true colours never came!

During the Indonesian crisis when the Rupiah was really down to it's lowest depths, super red arowanas coming from Indonesia were going for as low as S$500. Chilli reds were priced higher at $600 for the same size. What we learnt was that the $500 fish have all sorts of problems such as plj, clamped fins, etc, they were like lower grade fishes. Those marketed as Chilli reds (Yuda) were preselected for plj, seem in better shape. At a higher price were the Fire Reds, VIPs, these were supposed to be red but no mention is made of whether they are chilli or blood red. Brand prevails.
Now after the Rupiah has strengthened and keeps going up, price of Chilli reds have gone up to $950. Haven't seen the SR for a while. Fire Reds are at $1388.

From my own observation, the terms chilli red is a name used by farms for an occasion that best suit their marketing strategies. We see signs of a whole lot of branding, the market is moving away from blood vs chilli red to brand recognition. Strong brands such as Fire Red, VIP, Munjul thrive. Take Singapore's case. If you look at one of the other biggest importer of reds in Singapore, Qian Hu (as opposed to Rainbow) the branding has gone on to another level, selection by body shape - SR, Chilli reds, Spoon Head Violet Fusion, Armoured Violet Fusion. Sorting will determine which fish gets classified as which brand. If a fish shows signs of a spoon head, SHVF is used. A fish with a stout body, "double chin" is given AVF status and sells at a whopping $1800.

In Singapore's case, the sellers have chosen to market Super Reds at lower prices than the branded aros such as Fire Red, VIP, SHVF, AVF. Not sure about what is happening in the Red market in other countries, perhaps those who are into reds can share. It may not be the same scenario because my belief is that it is all down to marketing strategies. In my view, all are Grade 1 fishes. Naturally, some have better endowment in having redder scales, and there is an attempt to create brands to differentiate these from others, naturally sold at a premium price.


Quote:
yup, my cert only state that it's a super red...well, i guess i have to wait a few years to see the result


Some SRs in Singapore have turned out to be outstanding fishes that are even better than the branded reds.

Well said.

the two origin points i know about are lake Kapuas west kalimantan,indo and Sentarum Lake, (west Borneo) Indonesia. so these would likely be linked genetically anyway.

Sentarum Lake and the surrounding satellite lakes are part of the Kapuas River basin, so it would be more than just likely that the aros in this district are genetically linked. It is in this district of West Kalimantan where all wild red aros originate.

During the rainy season the Kapuas River feeds the Lake, during the dry season the Lake feeds back into the river. At the peak of the dry season the lake becomes a large expanse of dry land, with only scattered small pools of water remaining. The Sentarum lake district is known for it's high peat content, and low pH. The water is high in dissolved tannins and humic acids which accentuate the reddish/orange colours in the fish. One can see a similar effect on the color of the native Clown Loaches, and Betta spp. that are found in these same bodies of water in West Kalimantan. The blacker the water, the more intense the color red one may see in various specimens in the wild.


Genetic diversity is present in all healthy populations of wild fish, and none of this equates to there being more than 1 species of red arowana, or even more than one geographical variant. In most wild (as well as domestic) populations of fish one will see variations in physical characteristics & this would account for some fish having longer fins, more intense coloration, etc. A breeder with a keen eye will hold these fish back & utilize them as brood stock to fix certain traits that they consider are more desirable by consumers. And that is where the terms chili, blood, etc come into play.

In the study by Pouyaud, Studarto, and Teugels red arowana are defined as the Super Red, Chili or Blood Indonesian Arowana. There have been no distinctions observed between the various red aros in the wild, and as previously mentioned by Spakase I also view the terms chili, blood, etc as nothing more than made up marketing terms.

There's nothing wrong with using fancy names or special branding terms to sell fish, but until someone can show me something concrete genetic wise I will continue to believe that red aros are just that, red aros.

The rest boils down to breeding programs, and personal preference between the various farms fish.

 

[T1KARMANN]

the two origin points i know about are lake Kapuas west kalimantan,indo and
Sentarum Lake, (west Borneo) Indonesia. so these would likely be linked genetically anyway.
reds, super reds, chilli, blood. i think of it as genetic colour splay. unless you wanted to source what you want from a farm that more likely has the original line from a certain river. i have some info on that in a book at work as to which farms had what but you could imagine these days that a lot of farms have their reds coming from all over the place.

This was my whole point at the start when captive breeding of reds started the farms got most of there stock from the same location so the lines were more pure and you could say different farms in different locations were breeding more pure if not fully pure chilli or blood reds

Now as I stated and you have confirmed that farms buy fish from all over the place and throw them all in the same pond meaning the original form of blood and chilli red are lost there for the farms now call the mixed up fry super red

Every now and then they havest the fry and some may resemble the traditional blood or chilli reds so they cert it that as it's closer to the original type it's classed as a higher grade compared to the one that are mixed up and classed as the lower grade super red

This is just stuff I have red and you would need to get the real info from a 60 year old farm owner

 

[RD.]

Let me simplify things for you, Richard.

West Borneo = West Kalimantan. They are the same place.

Sentarum Lake and the surrounding satellite lakes are part of the Kapuas River basin - they flow back & forth into each other on a biannual basis.

In short, your theory has no merit, as you said it is just "stuff" that you have read.

Super Red, Chili, and Blood Reds are all the same species, they have simply been tweaked for certain characteristics via farm breeding programs.

 

[T1KARMANN]

Let me simplify things for you, Richard.

West Borneo = West Kalimantan. They are the same place.

Sentarum Lake and the surrounding satellite lakes are part of the Kapuas River basin - they flow back & forth into each other on a biannual basis.

In short, your theory has no merit, as you said it is just "stuff" that you have read.

Super Red, Chili, and Blood Reds are all the same species, they have simply been tweaked for certain characteristics via farm breeding programs.

So what you are saying is that red aros all come from one river mmmm ok I was under impression they were far apart with bounderys which would be crazy for a aro to and have to swim a few hundred miles to do so and as far as I know aros are now a fish that migrate to breed they are also not fond of fast flowing water this tells me that each type of aro would stay in it's location

Like I said it's just stuff I have read and don't know to much about red as I have only been keeping them for 2-3 years max

But how far are the 2 locations apart

 

[RD.]

They all come from the same river basin, which includes the Sentarum wetlands. This area consists of a series of interconnected seasonal lakes, which are all located within the floodplain of the upper Kapuas River.

Fish Movement

Most fish leave DSNP during the dry season and thus are available to fishers outside the park. The flooded area at low water is often a small fraction of the high water area. Not only must fish leave DSNP, but they are forced to move significant distances and in doing so become more vulnerable to various types of fishing gear. Conversely fish are carried into the park during rapidly rising water when the Tawang River flows into the park at rates exceeding 2,000 [m.sup.2] per second (Klepper 1994). Thus fish within DSNP originate from and return to the Kapuas River.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+fishery+of+Danau+Sentarum-a093827524

The locals refer to the native red aros as Siluk. Some interesting reading about the commercial fishing in this area in the link above.


The map & photo in the following link might help give you a better visual of this area.
http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207562

In the study by Pouyaud, Studarto, and Teugels they also state;

Distribution​

Scleropages legendrei​

​

​

​

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is confined to tannin stained black water streams with low pH values (< 5.5) in small forested lakes bordering the Sentarum Lake in the upper part of the Kapuas River (West Borneo, Indonesia)​

HTH

 

[T1KARMANN]

Different lakes can mean different variation in body shape head shape length colour the differences maybe small but still there

The most apparent difference being tail shape one having a fan shape tail the other a pair shape not a massive difference but still differences

You may want to read this I have also read loads of other stuff about differences between different reds from different locations we are not talking about farm bred reds but wild caught

This is a good read and you will find lots of other stuff about the differences if you look google is your friend

http://www.freshwaterstingray.nl/Arowana/Varieties.html

 

[RD.]

And that link is supposed to prove what exactly?

I'm not arguing the fact that there are variations, color morphs, etc among the various red arowana bred at various farms, I am referring only to wild specimens.

Can you provide any links showing wild caught reds, showing these various different traits that you keep referring to? I think not.



Once again, these so called "different" lakes are all part of the same watershed, they are all interconnected, and during the dry season they all flow back into the head waters of the Kapuas River. These are not isolated bodies of water where somehow some red aros have over the years magically transformed to have different body shapes, caudal fin shape, longer pectoral fins, and different shaped heads.


During a lengthy or very dry, dry season, they pretty much dry up, which is why they are referred to as seasonal lakes. No different than what one would find in the Amazon. In some years those massive flooded areas end up being nothing more than a small pocket of water, where fisherman can easily cherry pick each & every fish out of the water. This is precisely why the fisherman in this area fish heavily during the dry season.

What part of this do you not understand?

In Lake Santarum, during the rainy season the depth of the lake may reach 6-8 metres, flooding the surrounding areas and forest. During the dry season, when the level of the Kapuas river gradually drops, water from Lake Sentarum flows into Kapuas to restore the water deficit and keep the water level of the river relatively stable.

Eventually, when the dry season reaches its climax, Lake Sentarum and the surrounding areas become a vast stretch of dry land, the fish from the lake inhabiting small, scattered ponds.


To date there have been no distinctions observed by researchers between the various red aros in the wild. Beyond internet folklore, there is no proof whatsoever that any such fish exist.

What you & others are seeing are differences between farm bred fish, where various physical traits can easily be bred in or out of the fish.
Selective breeding has been used for thousands of years, aro breeders certainly didn't invent line breeding, or cross breeding.

 

[RD.]

BTW - here's a classic example of how folklore can be confused with actual facts, and repeated enough on the internet that many people consider this folklore to actually be factual. While this doesn't involve red aros, it does involve another species of fish collected in the same upper reaches of the Kapuas River basin. With the help of a friend in Indonesia we completely debunked everything that the so called experts had written, yet no doubt there are still thousands of people that will read that misinformation, and believe it due to this info being printed on the largest website devoted to this species. (Loaches Online) To date the admin & author have for whatever reason refused to edit their article on this subject, even after it was brought to their attention. Both also acknowledged the fact that they had no idea that in this case there was indeed a genetic difference between the collection locations.

Which only goes to prove, the information found on the internet is only as good as those supplying it.

Posts #51-60

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204026&page=6