Rookie Mistake - Help?

thiswasgone

Plecostomus
MFK Member
Oct 23, 2014
167
116
61
California
I didn't write down the magnification on the first 3 or the photos, but it would be 4x or 10x.

The last video here appears to be something different and is 10x from the gills.
Yup based on the videos I would say these are free-floating tomonts under going mitosis. Thus the 10x gill video is most likely a free-gloating theront shifting through the mucus on the slide. What's interesting to me is how low the colony size of the disease is since ich usually doesn't kill until it's spread to the point where you should be able to see multiple different cells of ich clustered together; at least that is my experience with cichlids. I have never kept these cats so I am unfamiliar to how hardy they are.

Still, it is a regrettable loss and I hope the rest of your fish make it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: thebiggerthebetter

thiswasgone

Plecostomus
MFK Member
Oct 23, 2014
167
116
61
California
Yup based on the videos I would say these are free-floating tomonts under going mitosis. Thus the 10x gill video is most likely a free-gloating theront shifting through the mucus on the slide. What's interesting to me is how low the colony size of the disease is since ich usually doesn't kill until it's spread to the point where you should be able to see multiple different cells of ich clustered together; at least that is my experience with cichlids. I have never kept these cats so I am unfamiliar to how hardy they are.

Still, it is a regrettable loss and I hope the rest of your fish make it.
To be more exact, they are "free-floating" in this situation but tomonts, once released from the skin after the trophont stage, typically fall off to the bottom of the tank and attempt to anchor themselves via developing a cyst wall around themselves and any object they can latch onto. This is why the cell walls of the circular organisms are so thick because it's a protective layer as the internal nuclei under mitosis to develop theronts.
 

Heck

Jack Dempsey
MFK Member
Mar 25, 2024
88
122
36
Sacramento, CA
To be more exact, they are "free-floating" in this situation but tomonts, once released from the skin after the trophont stage, typically fall off to the bottom of the tank and attempt to anchor themselves via developing a cyst wall around themselves and any object they can latch onto. This is why the cell walls of the circular organisms are so thick because it's a protective layer as the internal nuclei under mitosis to develop theronts.
Thank you SO MUCH for this lengthy consultation. I'm still wondering if the meds caused his death - or at least contributed to it - which is making me reluctant to continue treatment on the others, but at least I know I didn't misidentify the lesions to begin with and expose him to a stressful medication for no reason.

I am not super proud of my microscopy skills (or that microscope - but at least the screen is easy to photograph), and I admit I continued disassembling Bendy for a while trying (unsuccessfully) to get a better view, but he's been laid to rest now.

Beavis, Butthead, Blackie, and Jamiroquai still look, at the very least, no worse. I know that by putting the carbon filters back in I've started pulling the meds back out of the water, so now I don't know how I'll proceed. I did find a bottle of Seachem Paraguard I didn't know I had - should I switch to using that?
 

thiswasgone

Plecostomus
MFK Member
Oct 23, 2014
167
116
61
California
Thank you SO MUCH for this lengthy consultation. I'm still wondering if the meds caused his death - or at least contributed to it - which is making me reluctant to continue treatment on the others, but at least I know I didn't misidentify the lesions to begin with and expose him to a stressful medication for no reason.

I am not super proud of my microscopy skills (or that microscope - but at least the screen is easy to photograph), and I admit I continued disassembling Bendy for a while trying (unsuccessfully) to get a better view, but he's been laid to rest now.

Beavis, Butthead, Blackie, and Jamiroquai still look, at the very least, no worse. I know that by putting the carbon filters back in I've started pulling the meds back out of the water, so now I don't know how I'll proceed. I did find a bottle of Seachem Paraguard I didn't know I had - should I switch to using that?
As thebiggerthebetter thebiggerthebetter suggested you could try a formalin and malachite green combo using his medication recommendation (Microbe-Lift Broad Spectrum Disease Treatment). Ich-X is what I used when I first started fish keeping with oscars and got ich. I've never used Seachem Paraguard but a cursory glance at it's ingredient do not seem better than the "Super Ick Cure" and IMO it's worse since it also uses malachite green for the main treatment but also "glutaral" aka glutaraldehyde which is disinfected used on surgical equipment. IME disinfectants tend to make things worse unless you use them only in isolation baths in temporary tubs/bins for 15-30min treatments at specific concentrations; any overdose could result in major issues. I'm sure since it's a "Off-the-shelf" product there is a bit more lee-way than pure glutaral but I would take my chances with one of the other two medications if you don't trust the "Super Ick Cure".

Aside from an insane water change schedule and a UV unit the only other thing I can think of is using the filter/substrate of a well establish tank be introduced into your tank's filter + increase the turnover rate. The microscopic lifeforms in that established tank's filter/substrate should have a variety of larger protozoan carnivores that would eventually kill off the excess ich so that your fish's immune system is no longer overloaded. In fact, high flow + high biodiversity in the filter/substrate = most diseases will get eaten to the point where the fish's immune system is not overloaded. The prerequiste for this is that you find the initial stressor and correct the issue otherwise the fish's immune system will never recover to a healthy state.

Of course the 3rd option could take at least two - three weeks while using a medication mixed with both formalin and malachite green will have guaranteed results within a week at a tank water temp of 73-75F as they directly kill the free-swimming stages of the disease; a little over 1 week for a clean tank. If you want to keep temps at 76-78F then make sure you dose the tank every 24hrs as higher temperatures processes the medication faster. At these temps you should clear ich within 5-7days at full-dosage per the medicine's instructions. Temperatures beyond 80F are not required for any treatment unless your fish specifically require such temperatures (I only know about clown loaches who get extremely stressed below 80F but I would not be surprised if there were others).

If you're scared about overdosing at higher temps you can do a 1/4-1/3 water change and then redose the whole tank (not just the new water) per the medication's instrcuction.
 

Heck

Jack Dempsey
MFK Member
Mar 25, 2024
88
122
36
Sacramento, CA
I regret to report that Beavis and Butthead (pictus) went to sleep with the fishes last night.

Blackie and Jamiroquai (mystus) remain unbothered by the Ich, the treatment, and the loss of their friends. I mocked up a black background yesterday and they seem pretty stoked about that.

I guess I'll eat some ice cream for my feelings, keep treating the tank for a while, and then decide if I want to try again with some kind of tankmates again.

Is there a way to be confident when my tank is safe again? I'm pretty baffled by the loss and don't want to add fish to a sick tank. I still don't know if the pictus died of Ich or I killed them with the treatment.

Everything aquatic in both my tanks came from the same LFS, so I have to assume the Ich came from there - except the 125 gallon tank itself, which was secondhand from FB marketplace. I would be surprised if that was the source, since I bleached and cleaned it extremely thoroughly. I'm not trying to assign blame; it's no one's fault, these things happen. I'm just trying to learn.

I know that many people quarantine new fish before adding them to their main tanks. I could set up a quarantine tank pretty easily if I decide to try again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: thebiggerthebetter

thebiggerthebetter

Senior Curator
Staff member
MFK Member
Dec 31, 2009
16,265
14,482
3,910
Naples, FL, USA
Thiswasgone seems to know a lot about things that I am clueless about, so this is a nice and educational read for me, especially about the microbe diversity and interaction in an aged filter. Thank you so much for this.

Your ability to ID microorganisms under microscope also evokes deep respect in me as it is something I've never done.

On the practical side, I always thought ich normally lives on any fish in any tank and is kept in check by fish's immune system (I realize Thiswasgone mentioned some cases where ich can be eradicated totally from a tank but they seem rare). Hence, it's not a matter of where the ich had come from, but why it broke out of control. Almost always it seems to happen due to significant stress, actually very significant stress, or low stress but long term, which compromises immune system. I'd like to hear Thiswasgone's thoughts on that, as I am sure there is plenty of room for correction and augmentation.

IIRC Super Ick Cure lacks formalin? Or has MG as the main ingredient? As stated, I've used and prefer the Microbe-Lift BSDT or maybe Rid-Ich or some such meds based on formalin with a small fraction of MG added.

If the mystus haven't shown any ich on them, that could be because they were not stressed or not stressed as much by the rehoming and the temp change, if there was one. Pictus just came from a different place and might have been stressed by the transplantation before getting stressed in addition by the uncontrolled temp. Or maybe they had problems at their prior place, that is the shop. Or maybe you water is not well suited for them, e.g. too hard, or too high a pH? Or on the opposite - the carbonate hardness may be too low and hence pH swings and is unstable? IDK, just offering food for thought.
 
  • Like
Reactions: thiswasgone

thiswasgone

Plecostomus
MFK Member
Oct 23, 2014
167
116
61
California
Thiswasgone seems to know a lot about things that I am clueless about, so this is a nice and educational read for me, especially about the microbe diversity and interaction in an aged filter. Thank you so much for this.

Your ability to ID microorganisms under microscope also evokes deep respect in me as it is something I've never done.

On the practical side, I always thought ich normally lives on any fish in any tank and is kept in check by fish's immune system (I realize Thiswasgone mentioned some cases where ich can be eradicated totally from a tank but they seem rare). Hence, it's not a matter of where the ich had come from, but why it broke out of control. Almost always it seems to happen due to significant stress, actually very significant stress, or low stress but long term, which compromises immune system. I'd like to hear Thiswasgone's thoughts on that, as I am sure there is plenty of room for correction and augmentation.

IIRC Super Ick Cure lacks formalin? Or has MG as the main ingredient? As stated, I've used and prefer the Microbe-Lift BSDT or maybe Rid-Ich or some such meds based on formalin with a small fraction of MG added.

If the mystus haven't shown any ich on them, that could be because they were not stressed or not stressed as much by the rehoming and the temp change, if there was one. Pictus just came from a different place and might have been stressed by the transplantation before getting stressed in addition by the uncontrolled temp. Or maybe they had problems at their prior place, that is the shop. Or maybe you water is not well suited for them, e.g. too hard, or too high a pH? Or on the opposite - the carbonate hardness may be too low and hence pH swings and is unstable? IDK, just offering food for thought.
You're right, many new fish and non-lab cultured plants will likely have the ich parasite or another disease from a LFS due to the nature of the volume of fish being brought in and out from vendors and locals who can't care for their animals anymore. It's not uncommon for there to be at least one tomocyst (a tomont which has formed it's cyst wall) to be attached on the fish or plant when introducing new life into your tank. This is why a proper quarantine tank is nice to have as it lets you observe if any illness pops up from a new fish which will 100% be stressed out being in a new environment with different water parameters typically without any hiding places.

Also, to clarify, it is also my belief that ich is one of the few fish diseases that is 100% completely possible to erradicate within a tank so long as a tank's biological filter has enough microdiversity or if you run a UV filter. This is due to the fact that it's a pure fish parasite and cannot survive within a tank unless it's attached to a host. Thus, unless the hobbyist accidently introduces the disease into the tank it's 100% possible for there to be 0 ich in your tank. However, for most other diseases, especially bacterial, I do not believe it's possible to maintain a 100% pure clean room outside of labratory conditions. There would be too many vectors of infection: food items, spores within the air, already within the fish's gut, etc. Unfortunately this also means a well-aged biological filter is also not a 100% full-proof method of ensure no detrimental disease exist in your tank as most of them likely already live and breed within the water column just at a level where it's undetectable. Typically the only thing keeping their population from exploding is the fish's immune system which crashes when they are stressed out as you've mentioned before.

Interestingly enough, I believe there were studies regarding how some species of fish are more "prone" to having major outbreaks while some species, in a tank that has a ich outbreak, will visually look fine. This would indicate that immunity agaist ich is likely possible and perhaps a fish "vaccine" can be developed. It is also possible that this observed phenomenon is due to natur
 
  • Love
Reactions: thebiggerthebetter
zoomed.com
hikariusa.com
aqaimports.com
Store