Silicone and bracing failure

Backfromthedead

Potamotrygon
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Jul 12, 2017
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Backfromthedead Backfromthedead you’re telling me that plastic frame is gonna do more than my glass bracing or a traditional euro brace?!

it’s just crazy, I’ve seen this tank full of water dozens of times. I guess you guys are basically saying it’s just a matter of time.



since I already have the glass maybe using it and dropping the water line to 24” would be the way to go. I don’t know, now I’m all over the place

Bummer dude….
Didnt say that! The plastic frame will be adequate for 24" water level, provide far superior access to the tank, and be much easier to install provided it fits your tank.

And yes, matter of time. As in less time for a 72"x30" tank with 1/2" glass. Its not surprising it had been filled before...like you said it had an impressive safety factor of 2 :grinyes:

Plastic is awesome! People crap on it all the time but the reality is that polymers are far superior to other mediums for many applications (not all).

Do what you will! This is just MY somewhat educated opinion. Full disclosure i am no professional aquarium engineer or whatever, Ive just taught myself tank building over the last several years, done a fair number of DIY tanks, repurposing and refurbishing old tanks up to 200-300 gallons. I taught myself here on MFK for the most part, where there was once many more active tankbuilders around to comment and provide advice. jjohnwm jjohnwm is still around and always provides something i may have missed so maybe he'll know a better course.

Like i said im really not seeing the major bummer. If youre willing to take the risk for 6" of water or want to go with a differing opinion then good on ya. I just wont recommend a fix unless i KNOW it will be effective and long lasting. I cant just tell you want to hear because big tank failures can be costly and dangerous.
 

805hd

Feeder Fish
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Jan 5, 2025
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Backfromthedead Backfromthedead I totally get it and I appreciate all the input. I could put all the bracing in the world up top and it wouldn’t do a damn thing for the deflection on the glass at the vertical seams or anything for the tank just checking out one day. BOOM!

I’m a mechanical fabricator/ welder by trade so I have a decent understanding of things within this realm but glass is a new one for me. Lots of variables at play here. Especially working with water as it’s not necessarily always a static load in California where we shake 🫨

Hopefully others will chime in. The journey continues. But again, greatly appreciate your time, input and you! 🍻
 
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Backfromthedead

Potamotrygon
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Backfromthedead Backfromthedead I totally get it and I appreciate all the input. I could put all the bracing in the world up top and it wouldn’t do a damn thing for the deflection on the glass at the vertical seams or anything for the tank just checking out one day. BOOM!

I’m a mechanical fabricator/ welder by trade so I have a decent understanding of things within this realm but glass is a new one for me. Lots of variables at play here. Especially working with water as it’s not necessarily always a static load in California where we shake 🫨

Hopefully others will chime in. The journey continues. But again, greatly appreciate your time, input and you! 🍻
Yes yes yes! You get it then, im a railroader myself so a lot of applicable knowledge/theory regarding forces over time in my work.

Since i feel like your mind is right, ill try to express the significance of 24" vs. 30". In the formula for hydrostatic force on the side of a tank, the height variable is squared, so any difference in water column height is multiplied exponentially into the equation.

72x24h=746 lbs.
72x30h=1166 lbs.

So ~64% more force on the glass for 6" more of water level.
 
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805hd

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Backfromthedead Backfromthedead Nice! I wouldn’t go as far to say my mind is right. Ever! 😂😂😂

That’s actually crazy to think about, what is that 400+ lb difference over 6 inches of glass? As the guy building stuff I’m not always a huge fan of engineers but they certainly are necessary in the trades aren’t that?

Right now the tank sits half full and it’s over by 1/8 you would think with it full it would just double to 1/4.. Nope! Almost a full 5/8 !

The fact that the glass didn’t completely crap the bed when that bracing let go is beyond me. The light clamped on the back panel was shaking like somebody SMACKED it. I was standing maybe 6 feet away. Could have been bad. Potential emergency room visit bad.
 

Backfromthedead

Potamotrygon
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Backfromthedead Backfromthedead Nice! I wouldn’t go as far to say my mind is right. Ever! 😂😂😂

That’s actually crazy to think about, what is that 400+ lb difference over 6 inches of glass? As the guy building stuff I’m not always a huge fan of engineers but they certainly are necessary in the trades aren’t that?

Right now the tank sits half full and it’s over by 1/8 you would think with it full it would just double to 1/4.. Nope! Almost a full 5/8 !

The fact that the glass didn’t completely crap the bed when that bracing let go is beyond me. The light clamped on the back panel was shaking like somebody SMACKED it. I was standing maybe 6 feet away. Could have been bad. Potential emergency room visit bad.
Yes thats one of the very worst scenarios for a tank failure--sudden failure of the entire brace on an underbuilt tank and the glass failing due to a shock load--which is quite a bit even more force than normal(dont know that math). *conjecture* It is for this reason that annealed glass is actually preferable to tempered for aquariums. In theory an annealed panel will simply crack and leak where the stress is greatest...still held on by the silicone on the edges though. I have only actually seen this happen with me own eyes on a 46g bowfront tank with 3/16" glass, and that is exactly how it did so. Tempered glass goes BOOM like you said which results in an all-at-once, high velocity leak laden with glass shards. The flip side to this is that tempered might withstand the shock loading successfully if it is of sufficient quality--not all glass created equal. Imo you beat the odds :clap
 
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Backfromthedead

Potamotrygon
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This is an old writeup from another site, but time has not reduced its usefulness in explaining this better than i can:

 
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805hd

Feeder Fish
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Backfromthedead Backfromthedead That makes sense. I’ve seen videos and obviously wouldn’t want to experience either but much rather deal with a crack and a leak over the Colorado river instantly flowing through my “fish room”. Which, thank god is actually an addition built off of my garage and not inside my actual home.

That link is dead 👎🏻
 

jjohnwm

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Backfromthedead Backfromthedead Why would someone make this tank at 1/2 glass though? If I recall correctly the safety factor is at a 2.
Why did they do that? Simple: it was cheaper. Not better or easier or even adequate for long term. It was cheaper.


Unfortunately i cannot recommend a good solution for your tank as i believe the 1/2" glass is too thin for 72" length x30" height.

Yes ive heard all the excuses..."look at my glass calculator" or "its tempered glass". I dont care. My position is the glass bows, maybe not all at first, but surely and slightly outwards from the force of 30" water level, which eventually and inevitably leads to problems with the silicone. A glass tank should NEVER deflect outwards on ANY panel no matter what anyone tells you. Ive personally inspected multiple 220g 72x24x30 marineland and other similar glass tanks with 1/2" panels that fail on the vertical side seams after a few years of use. Theyre just not built to last imo. Im sure there are exceptions so please dont bombard me defending your tempered tank. These are simply my personal standards.
jjohnwm jjohnwm is still around and always provides something i may have missed so maybe he'll know a better course.

Like i said im really not seeing the major bummer. If youre willing to take the risk for 6" of water or want to go with a differing opinion then good on ya. I just wont recommend a fix unless i KNOW it will be effective and long lasting. I cant just tell you want to hear because big tank failures can be costly and dangerous.
I've got nothing worth adding here. I made the mistake a year or so back of commenting in a thread about DIY plywood tank construction regarding glass thickness. That turned into a name-calling pissing match of sufficient magnitude that I just don't get involved with this topic anymore. I'm only posting now because you tagged me and I think ignoring it would be impolite.

I fully agree with Backfromthedead Backfromthedead regarding glass thickness. I don't want to see glass deflection at all, and I don't care how many others want to pipe up with stories of their successes using the absolute thinnest materials they think they can get away with. This is the same mindset that asks for the absolute smallest tank for a given species of fish, or the absolute maximum number of fish that can be kept in a given tank, or...well, you get the idea. I am not interested in dancing that close to the edge of disaster.

I worked for an all-glass tank maker back when I was in high school, and he insisted on a safety factor of at least 4, and aimed for 4.5 or better. He never used cross braces, and rarely Euro-braces; he just used thicker, stronger glass with its attendant wider, stronger silicone bead. It was many years before I saw a tank with a crossbrace, and my first thought was that some cheapskate had tried to brace a tank so that he could get away with thinner glass. It was around that time as well that I saw a tank with a front glass bowed out when it was filled up. The guy said "Oh, yeah, that happens with all tanks. Nothing to worry about". Yeah, right...

Looking at that pic of the crossbrace failure, I can't help but wonder if the fault lies at least partially with cheap-ass bargain-grade silicone ("Kraken"?)...or expired cheap-ass bargain-grade silicone...perhaps in combination with insufficient glass cleaning and preparation. It's impossible to overstate the importance of perfect cleaning of the mating glass surfaces before applying silicone. And cleaning the upper edge of the front panel, where the brace sits on top of it, is more challenging because the glass surface of the edge is not polished smooth like the sides. Any microscopic imperfections in the glass surface can and will hold contaminants that can and will mess up the seal.

And finally...your mention of possible seismic jiggling and wiggling makes my blood run cold. Just another layer of urgency regarding careful selection of quality materials and painstaking preparation.
 
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Backfromthedead

Potamotrygon
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I was actually curious about the kraken! Been seeing it lately touted as specifically engineered for aquariums but perhaps better suited for arts and crafts based on this report.

And yes jjohnwm jjohnwm I have also been curious as to how a few certain city-sized plywood tanks are holding up...perhaps a poking of the bear is in order...
 
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jjohnwm

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Poke away, bud! I haven't been back to the zoo since then and don't plan to visit now. :)
 
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