The Piranha Nutrition Thread

[RD.]

In regards to Fleshy's comments regarding thiaminase, feeding pellets, etc, please see the following discussion for more info.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?537923-Nutrition-Sticky



HTH

 

[TheBtchWhisperersWife]

Love this thread! Makes me really glad "The Uglies" are on pellet food.

 

[Diogenes]

Okay guys, a few thoughts after having gone through this whole thread.

1. I am the maker of a saltwater fish food that I use(d) for all my own fish and that many people have tried to duplicate after trying it.

2. I have always been aware of the thiaminase issue - but never done much to steer clear of it, minus avoiding cyprinids in any diet.

The list of fish and animals (especially feeding SW preds) that contain thiaminase is staggering.

Here is a good link (sorry it takes you off site, maybe we can re collab it here and edit the sticky?) for everything you might even consider feeding and whether or not it contains thiaminase:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_1/thiaminase.htm

With that being said - Id like to point out that in feeding pellets (mainly fish meal) that the chances of giving your fish a high thiamine food (most fish meal is made from cyprinids, clupeids, and other families that have members that contain thiaminase) seems likely. Other quality brands (like the NLS that I always use and recommend) contain krill as the number one ingredient which also contains thiaminase and is not recommended to feed.

Now Im confused. Pellets #1 ingredient in my mind most likely contains it - possibly even from families of fish that contain high levels of thiaminase.

I think there is something going on here that we are all missing - and I intend on breaching this subject with professors and colleagues at the university that I attend/work for.

Let me know your thoughts on what I just said - I have always used shrimp as a staple for FW Preds to SW - and now Im confused.

Side note - my new P's are feeding just fine on different frozen cubes and today (for the first and only time thus far, finely chopped table shrimp).

Would love to get them onto massivore, but even though I have loaded the tank with dithers to teach them what to eat they do not seem too interested in NLS.

Also, according to researchers at Cornell University:

Subjecting thiaminases found in some types of raw fish and fish entrails to cooking or other heat treatment will render those thiaminases inactive enough to prevent thiamin deficiency in carnivores. The original inhabitants of Australia soaked thiaminase-rich nardoo in water for a time and cooked them into bread and soup before ingesting them, thus avoiding the thiamin deficiency symptoms presented by people who eat nardoo raw. Fern thiaminases may not be completely destroyed by cooking, so until it is clearly established which combinations of cooking time, cooking pressure and cooking temperature is needed to eliminate pteridophyte thaminase, caution should be exercised in consuming ferns as human food.

most commercial fishfoods are "cooked" in a manner which would most likely denature the thiaminase although further research would be needed to confirm this.

http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/toxicagents/thiaminase.html

 

[F1 VET]

Also, according to researchers at Cornell University:

Subjecting thiaminases found in some types of raw fish and fish entrails to cooking or other heat treatment will render those thiaminases inactive enough to prevent thiamin deficiency in carnivores. The original inhabitants of Australia soaked thiaminase-rich nardoo in water for a time and cooked them into bread and soup before ingesting them, thus avoiding the thiamin deficiency symptoms presented by people who eat nardoo raw. Fern thiaminases may not be completely destroyed by cooking, so until it is clearly established which combinations of cooking time, cooking pressure and cooking temperature is needed to eliminate pteridophyte thaminase, caution should be exercised in consuming ferns as human food.

most commercial fishfoods are "cooked" in a manner which would most likely denature the thiaminase although further research would be needed to confirm this.

http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/toxicagents/thiaminase.html

I would like to know RD's take on this since out of all of us he is vastly educated on manufacturing/nutrition of fish food by being in the industry.








×Go S Vettel #1 Infiniti Redbull! 3x WDC!!!×
__________________________________________________________________

Cheap way to decrease nitrates and keep your fish healthy: http://monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=504763

 

[RD.]

I already posted on this subject in the nutrition sticky, but just so it doesn't get missed I'll repeat it here as well.


The heat created during the extrusion process, as well as the supplementation of Thiamin via commercial vitamin/mineral premixes removes any potential thiaminase issues in all commercial fish foods.

There is no need for "further research" with regards to commercial pellets, this nutritional issue has been known for decades within commercial aquaculture circles. No fish food company is producing pellets that are going to have any type of thiaminase issue. Quite the opposite - feeding pellets will ensure that your fish do not end up with any type of B1 deficiencies.

 

[F1 VET]

I already posted on this subject in the nutrition sticky, but just so it doesn't get missed I'll repeat it here as well.


The heat created during the extrusion process, as well as the supplementation of Thiamin via commercial vitamin/mineral premixes removes any potential thiaminase issues in all commercial fish foods.

There is no need for "further research" with regards to commercial pellets, this nutritional issue has been known for decades within commercial aquaculture circles. No fish food company is producing pellets that are going to have any type of thiaminase issue. Quite the opposite - feeding pellets will ensure that your fish do not end up with any type of B1 deficiencies.

Bam. Thanks!




×Go S Vettel #1 Infiniti Redbull! 3x WDC!!!×
__________________________________________________________________

Cheap way to decrease nitrates and keep your fish healthy: http://monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=504763

 

[TheQuarterMile]

Finally my Pirahans started to acknowledge pellets so I want to know what to start of with.. Fish are about 3-4" so what size would be preferable?Was considering the Following:


1.Hikari Cichlid Bio-Gold+ Mini Pellets
[FONT=Trebuchet, Trebuchet MS]2. Hikari Cichlid Gold Mini Pellets[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet, Trebuchet MS]3. Arrowana [FONT=Trebuchet, Trebuchet MS]Sticks[/FONT][/FONT]


Right now I was experimenting with my Flowerhorn's Ocean Free XO Humpy Head and they ate it,
At the moment I feed them live food like shrimp,beef heart,white fish,etc.

 

[ballinouttacntrol]

Finally my Pirahans started to acknowledge pellets so I want to know what to start of with.. Fish are about 3-4" so what size would be preferable?Was considering the Following:


1.Hikari Cichlid Bio-Gold+ Mini Pellets
[FONT=Trebuchet, Trebuchet MS]2. Hikari Cichlid Gold Mini Pellets[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet, Trebuchet MS]3. Arrowana [FONT=Trebuchet, Trebuchet MS]Sticks[/FONT][/FONT]


Right now I was experimenting with my Flowerhorn's Ocean Free XO Humpy Head and they ate it,
At the moment I feed them live food like shrimp,beef heart,white fish,etc.

Sorry, i'm not sure what size those are but anything that'll fit in your piranhas mouth is fine. don't go too small

 

[Drunk Canadian]

What fish would you recommend to me (I am new in keeping Piranha)? I am looking at either the Black Piranha or a Gold diamond Piranha, both are relatively the same. Or as a newbie should i go with a few Red Bellies?

 

[fyriskung]

I feed my new rhoms (about 9") with frozen tails of shrimps right now, I've only had him for like 10 days and he is used to it so therefore he just have tails of shrimps right now. But I think it's poor nutrients in them so I'm considering switching to whole frozen shrimp with shell and everything. What do you think about that? Is it OK if he gets the whole shrimp with shell?