The realationship between fish stunning and fish health+suffering

[12 Volt Man]

Fish can definitely become 'stunted' but the ill effects are a myth, especially the BS about how the organs continue to grow inside the fish while the body doesn't. that's pure horseshit. Growth doesn't work that way.

I mean if you think about it, it doesn't make sense. For example, we know the adult size of an Oscar can reach 14 to 15 inches. However, many of them only reach 12 inches, in either the aquarium or in the wild.

Are all these 12 inch oscars Stunted with big organs inside them because they didn't reach 15 inches?

No.

Do they die early because they didn't reach 15 inches?

No.

etc

The whole fish stunted and ill health from it is just internet misinformation that has been spread since 1995.

It was never a thing in the hobby prior to the internet.

 

[cockroach]

I downloaded this book ages ago and have not had the time to sit down and actually go through beyond glancing over topics. The title of the file I downloaded is:
LINK HERE that may allow you to download it as well.
Kristiansen, T. S., Fernö, A., Pavlidis, M. A., & van de Vis, H. (Eds.). (2020). The Welfare of Fish. Springer. https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-030-41675-1

Here is ANOTHER LINK to a paper on, "Exposure to Nitrate Increases Susceptibility to Hypoxia in Fish".
Gomez Isaza, D. F., Cramp, R. L., & Franklin, C. E. (2021). Exposure to nitrate increases susceptibility to hypoxia in fish. Physiological and Biochemical Zoology, 94(6), 390–400. https://doi.org/10.1086/713252

 

[skjl47]

We are in a process with the ministry of agriculture here in order to change the law and create a system that will support fish welfare and connect between the fish size, specie, and requairments to the animals welfare law here.

Hello; Sounds like a big brother sort of thing. Trying to force the opinions of a select few onto everyone. In the USA we have a few animal welfare type non- government originations trying to stop one thing or another. The general ideas often seem desirable, such as treat animals decently. Problem is they are known to take things too far. If your proposed animal welfare laws do not go to extremes they may be more acceptable to a larger segment of the community. Sadly I get hints that you will push things a bit too far. Before i offer help it would be good to have you spell out some of the rules you wish to put into law.

Next item is this is likely an ethics quagmire. We have had several go-arounds on this site. Usually over dogs but fish as well. A number of older threads exist here about hobby ethics, fish cruelty, Tank size and stocking densities. A thing is there is a very wide range of opinions on these topics within a community of folks who all essentially favor having decent conditions for their fish.

An example not too long ago was a thread on hobby ethics which resulted in my being put on probation for a while. The thread devolved to the point of being closed down even with my voice silenced. Started out about the ethics of the hobby much as yours has, then went south quickly.

 

[Savethemall]

In order to make a change (especially when the ones standing in front of you arent big fans of this change)you need evidents, scientific data that is undeniable . So it oneone can helo me get any i will super app it cuz i tried and got nothing.

 

[Savethemall]

Hello; Sounds like a big brother sort of thing. Trying to force the opinions of a select few onto everyone. In the USA we have a few animal welfare type non- government originations trying to stop one thing or another. The general ideas often seem desirable, such as treat animals decently. Problem is they are known to take things too far. If your proposed animal welfare laws do not go to extremes they may be more acceptable to a larger segment of the community. Sadly I get hints that you will push things a bit too far. Before i offer help it would be good to have you spell out some of the rules you wish to put into law.

Next item is this is likely an ethics quagmire. We have had several go-arounds on this site. Usually over dogs but fish as well. A number of older threads exist here about hobby ethics, fish cruelty, Tank size and stocking densities. A thing is there is a very wide range of opinions on these topics within a community of folks who all essentially favor having decent conditions for their fish.

An example not too long ago was a thread on hobby ethics which resulted in my being put on probation for a while. The thread devolved to the point of being closed down even with my voice silenced. Started out about the ethics of the hobby much as yours has, then went south quickly.

I want to forbid import of fish that has crazy growth potnetial. For example paroon sharks. Fish that are ,in any likehood, will live a decent life in a home aquarium.

 

[skjl47]

In order to make a change (especially when the ones standing in front of you arent big fans of this change)you need evidents, scientific data that is undeniable . So it oneone can helo me get any i will super app it cuz i tried and got nothing.

Hello; Here is a question for you personally. You have already signaled your viewpoint. Lets us say lots of evidence and undeniable scientific data are compiled. Say the more important data and relevant evidence point to conclusions you do not favor. Will you abide by such an outcome?

 

[Toby_H]

I want to forbid import of fish that has crazy growth potnetial. For example paroon sharks. Fish that are ,in any likehood, will live a decent life in a home aquarium.

The thing is, these things can become slippery slopes.

Of course a Paroon Shark is too big for the home aquaria. So that's where the line is. But Red Tail Cats are just as bad. And Pacu. And Dovi. And... and... and... Who gets to decide where the line is? Once a line is drawn, how do we ensure the line stays there? We see this in government all the time. And that's not a polarized thing. Both sides do it.

 

[skjl47]

I want to forbid import of fish that has crazy growth potnetial. For example paroon sharks. Fish that are ,in any likehood, will live a decent life in a home aquarium.

Hello; I admit your list is not what i expected it to be. More limited than expected. But I do get the import of the goal. I have seen way too many large fish in too small tanks. On the face of it I agree with the goal. Let me throw out a potential exception or few. Some of the members on this forum are well enough to do so as to be able to have very large tanks. Some may have tanks large enough to house such a shark. Likely not many to be sure, but ought to be a few. Can an exception be made for such a forum member?
Imagining a yes answer I further submit some sort of application process will be needed. You know so the member can prove they can house a fish to some pre-determined standard. Will we home aquarist have to have a license of some sort?

 

[skjl47]

Thread 'The Ethics of Aquariums'

Oct 8, 2024

I will start this by saying I am not against fish keeping or pet ownership, but I do believe it is important to question and debate the norms that generally go unchallenged. I have owned countless fish, dogs, cats and several reptiles and I have recently had an internal dilemma with the morality and ethics of keeping exotic animals specifically fish. I challenge you to create a list of justifiable reasons why keeping fish is a morally sound and just hobby. Outside of breeding facilities that aim to preserve dwindling species I have struggled to find a logical reason for keeping fish in a...

• Kelly_Aquatics
• Replies: 57
• Forum: General Aquaria Discussion

• 

Hello; For reference the above link is a typical ethics thread and not to distant in the past. Might give the OP some insight.

 

[Savethemall]

Hello; I admit your list is not what i expected it to be. More limited than expected. But I do get the import of the goal. I have seen way too many large fish in too small tanks. On the face of it I agree with the goal. Let me throw out a potential exception or few. Some of the members on this forum are well enough to do so as to be able to have very large tanks. Some may have tanks large enough to house such a shark. Likely not many to be sure, but ought to be a few. Can an exception be made for such a forum member?
Imagining a yes answer I further submit some sort of application process will be needed. You know so the member can prove they can house a fish to some pre-determined standard. Will we home aquarist have to have a license of some sort?

Its important to emphasize that the goal of this move is to limit *import* and trade of fish, and not aim to prevent fish keeping. The regulations im dealing with are with these parts and not against the aquarist. And the law here is already giving an awnser to that. Right now there is a list of legal fish to import and there is a legal way to ask permituon to import fish that arent on this "white list". My goal is to remove from this white list the species which are awnsering to one of a few categories:
1. Endangered specie
2.They have a significant risk potential for humans
3.Animal welfare-their size is unsuit for most of the home aquaria and therefor their hold in captivity wil result jn animal abuse.