Washing Your Bio
- Thread starter benzjamin13
- Start date
Man oh man, some people are just plain thick.
Squint - you asked me, "Are you saying that chlorine is less toxic to nitrifying bacteria than chloramine?"
The examples that you just posted snippets of, both refer to what I assumed was low residual chlorine. I even used the term weak chlorine residuals in the second, and in the first example posted the doctors city level, which IS low, even upstream from his home. I wasn't comparing the two disinfectants on a 1:1 full strength ratio, as though chloramine is somehow a more powerful disinfectant than chlorine. Doh.
And this is the full quote:
"Just for funsies I checked out the local water report for where the doctor resides, Rochester Minnesota. The water tested in 2017 showed a range of chlorine residual at 0.5-0.8 - and an average result of 0.7
So the water as it leaves his taps, year round he would be rinsing in what most would consider a very low residual of chlorine. Depending on how far away he is located from the treatment facility, he could be showing only a trace of chlorine as it leaves his taps, possibly as low as 0.1-0.3
So yeah, the doc could easily get away with rinsing his bio-media in tap water.
I would like to see him try that in 2-3 ppm chloramine."
Good call jumping in again way after the fact, with partial quotes to support your logic. Totally impressive.
Squint - you asked me, "Are you saying that chlorine is less toxic to nitrifying bacteria than chloramine?"
The examples that you just posted snippets of, both refer to what I assumed was low residual chlorine. I even used the term weak chlorine residuals in the second, and in the first example posted the doctors city level, which IS low, even upstream from his home. I wasn't comparing the two disinfectants on a 1:1 full strength ratio, as though chloramine is somehow a more powerful disinfectant than chlorine. Doh.
And this is the full quote:
"Just for funsies I checked out the local water report for where the doctor resides, Rochester Minnesota. The water tested in 2017 showed a range of chlorine residual at 0.5-0.8 - and an average result of 0.7
So the water as it leaves his taps, year round he would be rinsing in what most would consider a very low residual of chlorine. Depending on how far away he is located from the treatment facility, he could be showing only a trace of chlorine as it leaves his taps, possibly as low as 0.1-0.3
So yeah, the doc could easily get away with rinsing his bio-media in tap water.
I would like to see him try that in 2-3 ppm chloramine."
Good call jumping in again way after the fact, with partial quotes to support your logic. Totally impressive.
Last edited:
Hello; Go down this page a bit to the list of users who have read this thread. The total is 88. While there may be 132,096 total members of the forum no where near all have even looked at this particular thread.
Oh, I went back and highlighted the 88 number.
Sort of changes things does it not? Further it may be that not all 88 have followed the threads every post. It may be that some have simply chosen to read and not to participate. Bet the numbers of those who have participated is even less than 88. Now to the real crux of the matter. I cannot make any sort of case one way or another from the basic numbers but I did not use false numbers to make an implication.
Hello; Thought it was clear I was referring to the seven participating in the thread who actually both used tap water to clean media at some time and did not report a tank crash from personal experience. To me an example of spinning things a bit to your advantage something like you did with the 132,096 number.
"I have seen tanks full of dead fish from the same mistake, using straight tap water." To be blunt I no longer have full faith in some of your statements. Yes I can see how using straight tap water in a tank can harm fish if no water conditioner such a PRIME is used. Did we not clear up how the use of PRIME makes a difference. What is not clear is if the tanks of dead fish were from a simple rinse of some small portion of media or from someone putting tap water directly into a tank. Not clear.
LOL, the plot thickens.
Jeff, just to be crystal clear, the reason that I posted the total membership here was to illustrate what I have been attempting to get across all along, a few drops in a bucket does not equate to the entire ocean. As in 7 out of 132,000+ members doesn't mean much. That's not a spin, nor did I use false numbers, that was in response to your findings. I used real numbers, just like you did, mine just painted a slightly different picture.
Would you feel better if 88 people had the same findings that you did? Would you sleep better at night? lol It doesn't matter how many can, as much as it matters how many can not. This seems to be something that hasn't quite sunk in yet.
Those that can, suffer no consequences, those that cannot, can potentially suffer major consequences if they aren't careful. Sometimes bad sheet happens.
And what I actually said was: "And you missed someone that did report a tank crashing, a tank ran off on an Fx5 that was being cleaned under tap water. Or does my experience not count? I have seen tanks full of dead fish from the same mistake, using straight tap water. I mentioned that as well."
The former was referring to what happened when my friend was washing his bio-media in his laundry sink, using straight tap water. I was there, my observations were from personal experience, with regards to our cities tap water. Once he corrected that practice, and followed my advice, his constant mini cycle issue went away. That friend is actually a long standing member of MFK, someone that I have known for many years.
The latter was caused from someone not using water conditioner to treat their tap water before going in their tank. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Where I live, either scenario can cause problems, potentially fatal problems if one isn't careful. Where other members on MFK live, neither washing bio-bacteria, nor adding straight tap water to their tanks will be an issue. Some folks have such low residuals of chlorine at their taps they can run a garden hose straight from their tap, into their tanks. And many do, this is not news to me. I had mentioned this I believe 3 times now, so I thought I was pretty clear how the fish died - it wasn't from cleaning bio-bacteria under the tap.
But both scenarios was due to someone not being careful when dealing with chloramine disinfectant residuals.
The following was from post # 90, where I also mentioned dead fish. Hopefully that is clear now - the fish died from chloramine toxicity from someone that failed to neutralize the chloramine in their re-fill water, not from washing filter media.
"Chloramine kills nitrifying bacteria. Chlorine kills nitrifying bacteria. Both are oxidizing agents that are not bacteria friendly, and not fish friendly. I think that we can all agree on that. These are not facts based on hobbyist hyperbole, but facts based in hard data supplied by scientists who specialize in this field. Many hobbyists have seen the results first hand, tanks that keep going into a mini cycle, and/or dead fish."
I was simply pointing out how toxic disinfectants can be.
There is no right or wrong way to clean bio-media, or for that matter, treat ones tank water. Far too many variables involved for anyone to carve anything out in stone, other than everyone should become intimately familiar with their own personal tap water, and use that as a starting point.
I've been a member here for a long time, and I have lost count how many times I have seen someone give out poor advice when it comes to neutralizing chlorine and/or chloramine, even when a water conditioner such as PRIME is being used.
It was that very reason that triggered me to start the following thread here, 9 years ago, which was later made a sticky.
https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/cost-effective-water-conditioners.309623/
I reached out many years ago to John Farrell Kuhns, the inventor of ClorAm-X, as well as the CEO & head chemist of Seachem, Dr. Greg Morin. Both very nice guys, very sharing with their time and expertise in this area.
BTW - This thread would have never head in the direction that it had the swiss poret foam website info not been posted, and later defended, and had squint not decided to be his usual pain in the ass self, arguing endlessly about nothing.
Jeff, just to be crystal clear, the reason that I posted the total membership here was to illustrate what I have been attempting to get across all along, a few drops in a bucket does not equate to the entire ocean. As in 7 out of 132,000+ members doesn't mean much. That's not a spin, nor did I use false numbers, that was in response to your findings. I used real numbers, just like you did, mine just painted a slightly different picture.
Would you feel better if 88 people had the same findings that you did? Would you sleep better at night? lol It doesn't matter how many can, as much as it matters how many can not. This seems to be something that hasn't quite sunk in yet.
Those that can, suffer no consequences, those that cannot, can potentially suffer major consequences if they aren't careful. Sometimes bad sheet happens.
And what I actually said was: "And you missed someone that did report a tank crashing, a tank ran off on an Fx5 that was being cleaned under tap water. Or does my experience not count? I have seen tanks full of dead fish from the same mistake, using straight tap water. I mentioned that as well."
The former was referring to what happened when my friend was washing his bio-media in his laundry sink, using straight tap water. I was there, my observations were from personal experience, with regards to our cities tap water. Once he corrected that practice, and followed my advice, his constant mini cycle issue went away. That friend is actually a long standing member of MFK, someone that I have known for many years.
The latter was caused from someone not using water conditioner to treat their tap water before going in their tank. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Where I live, either scenario can cause problems, potentially fatal problems if one isn't careful. Where other members on MFK live, neither washing bio-bacteria, nor adding straight tap water to their tanks will be an issue. Some folks have such low residuals of chlorine at their taps they can run a garden hose straight from their tap, into their tanks. And many do, this is not news to me. I had mentioned this I believe 3 times now, so I thought I was pretty clear how the fish died - it wasn't from cleaning bio-bacteria under the tap.
But both scenarios was due to someone not being careful when dealing with chloramine disinfectant residuals.
The following was from post # 90, where I also mentioned dead fish. Hopefully that is clear now - the fish died from chloramine toxicity from someone that failed to neutralize the chloramine in their re-fill water, not from washing filter media.
"Chloramine kills nitrifying bacteria. Chlorine kills nitrifying bacteria. Both are oxidizing agents that are not bacteria friendly, and not fish friendly. I think that we can all agree on that. These are not facts based on hobbyist hyperbole, but facts based in hard data supplied by scientists who specialize in this field. Many hobbyists have seen the results first hand, tanks that keep going into a mini cycle, and/or dead fish."
I was simply pointing out how toxic disinfectants can be.
There is no right or wrong way to clean bio-media, or for that matter, treat ones tank water. Far too many variables involved for anyone to carve anything out in stone, other than everyone should become intimately familiar with their own personal tap water, and use that as a starting point.
I've been a member here for a long time, and I have lost count how many times I have seen someone give out poor advice when it comes to neutralizing chlorine and/or chloramine, even when a water conditioner such as PRIME is being used.
It was that very reason that triggered me to start the following thread here, 9 years ago, which was later made a sticky.
https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/cost-effective-water-conditioners.309623/
I reached out many years ago to John Farrell Kuhns, the inventor of ClorAm-X, as well as the CEO & head chemist of Seachem, Dr. Greg Morin. Both very nice guys, very sharing with their time and expertise in this area.
BTW - This thread would have never head in the direction that it had the swiss poret foam website info not been posted, and later defended, and had squint not decided to be his usual pain in the ass self, arguing endlessly about nothing.
So are we all good now? Does anyone need a hug? Can we let this thread scroll off into the never-never land of MFK, or is there anything else that I have posted that anyone would like cleared up?
BTFO?
BTFO?
Last edited:
Sigh
I really don't want to delete this thread due to the large quantity of high quality data presented, but I will if it comes to that. Most of you have been able to maintain a reasonably professional bearing thus far, and that's appreciated. Still though, childish trolling for the sole purpose of baiting people into an argument instead of a debate won't be tolerated.
I really don't want to delete this thread due to the large quantity of high quality data presented, but I will if it comes to that. Most of you have been able to maintain a reasonably professional bearing thus far, and that's appreciated. Still though, childish trolling for the sole purpose of baiting people into an argument instead of a debate won't be tolerated.
I haven’t read thru the 16 pages of posts and some long winded arguments. I did the same and agree with the op 100% that there is a hype of fearing tap water would destroy the bio media.
In an established tank, nitrifying bacteria is everywhere and plentiful to recolonize sterile media quickly. When I was a kid knew nothing about bio media, I used to break down my UGF once a year by holding my fish in a pot of old tank water and power washed the UGF with tap water. Then I placed fish and everything back to the tank and refill with aged tap water. I never lost any fish and they ere happy to restart with cleaned UGF. Apparently, the old tank water had sufficient good bacteria to seed and recolonize the gravels.
There are two broad types of bacteria that inhabit the media, autotrophic and herterotrophic bacteria. Autotrophic are the good nitrifying bacteria that feed on inorganic NH3 and NO2. Herterotrophic are the bad ones that decomprose organic matter and compete with autotrophic and fish for O2. Heterotrophic grow 10x faster than autotrophic and will over time crowd out autotrophic in the media. It’s a dangerous time bomb in a power outage when overcrowded media can turn anaerobic. So cleaning the media periodically will restore safe home and efficiency for autotrophic.
I toured the Seagress fish wholeseller years ago which employed giant fluidized sand filters for the system. You can see clear separation in layers of autotrophic and heterotrophic bacteria in different color. As a maintenance routine, when the herotrophic layer gets too thick, Seagress has to back flush the filters to restore the efficiency of the filter. Similar backwashing maintenance is done routinely in waste water treatment plant when the triggering filter media gets clogged with gunk.
