Whats the deal with Xtreme fish food ??

FINWIN

Alligator Gar
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Having said that, it doesn't take several decades worth of research to understand that the protein/amino acids, as well as the lipids/fatty acids, found in fish, krill, squid, shrimp, and other seafood, when feeding a finfish, are superior to the protein & fat derived from soybean meal, pea meal, DDGS, corn, etc.

There are scores of peer reviewed unbiased scientific papers/studies/reports that support that conclusion. The alternatives to fish protein & fat, were only "discovered", when seeking lower cost alternatives. Not healthier, or better ingredients, but cheaper ingredients, to save production costs. The anecdotal evidence that you mention is only due from the sheer resilience of most fish, that clearly can eat loads of low cost fillers and still seem to survive. There is now approx. 100 years of feed trials to prove that. Ditto to dogs, cats, etc. Not exactly something that I think we should all stand and cheer about.

This is typically where someone will post "my fish eat this (lower quality food with soybean etc) and inform everyone how healthy & colorful they are. Again, all that proves is the sheer resilience of most species of fish.
An Amphilophus living in a lake full of raw sewage in Nicaragua typically looks great too, until it dies a premature death from the toxic build up. I recall the fish in the Detroit River circa 1970 looking "great" too.




Wrong.

Things have improved drastically since I started out years ago, but there is still a lot of crap on the market, loaded with low cost terrrestrial based, cereal based fillers.

I like to think that I have played a small role in some of these improvements. Prior to joining this site I was a member, then later a mod, on a well known cichlid site. I had no affiliation with anyone but myself starting out. I beat up a lot of manufacturers back in the day, it didn't go unnoticed. I was told by one of the owners of the site that I was a mod on that other food manufacturers (other meaning not the one that I supported) would not sponsor the forum unless I went bye bye, or shut up. I was later threatened with a law suit by Dennis Crews, the owner of Omega, over something that I didn't even post. lol
I was emailed directly from the president of Hikari USA, because I was corresponding with their head researcher in Japan, as though I was involved in corporate espionage. lol Some fun/stupid reading for anyone interested. https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/massivore-question.309774/

Long story short, I made some waves, large enough waves that manufacturers began to notice that I called crap out for what it was, including when Northfin appeared to be using excessive amounts of ethoxyquin in some of their food, while stating on their website that their food was ethoxyquin free. Darius knows me as well. :)


At the end of all of that, NF did in fact update their website, which included changing their preservative-free claim. I also updated that thread to note that.

I consider that a victory. Even the better quality food manufacturers need to have checks & balances in place.



That depends on the food, but yes, absolutely.

Here's a couple of prime examples.

Wardley Algae Disc:

Ingredients: Wheat Flour, Wheat Middlings, Fish Meal, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Wheat Gluten Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Soy Protein Isolate, Ground Dried Spirulina, Fish Oil, Soybean Oil, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Source of Vitamin C), Calcium Propionate (a preservative), Rice Hulls, Choline Chloride, Betaine, Ethoxyquin (a preservative), Vitamin E Supplement, Calcium Carbonate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Source of Vitamin K activity), Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Niacin Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Mineral Oil, Thiamine Mononitrate, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Proteinate, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Vitamin A Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium Iodate.


Hikari Algae Wafer

INGREDIENTS

Fish meal, wheat flour, wheat germ meal, cassava starch, dried bakery product, dried seaweed meal, alfalfa nutrient concentrate dehydrated, dehydrated alfalfa meal, brewers dried yeast, soybean meal, fish oil, krill meal, spirulina, garlic, DL-methionine, chlorella, astaxanthin, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized vitamin C), inositol, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, vitamin A supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, niacin, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, disodium phosphate, ferrous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, calcium iodate.


Or this:

View attachment 1405642



Guess which food I would recommend that someone feed their herbivorous fish?
What's all the fuss? I like green paste. :cool-1: Makes great bread for St. Patrick's day.
 

esoxlucius

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Just finished reading the whole thread from 10 yrs ago from the link that RD. RD. posted in his post #37. This stuff is gold dust, I highly recommend it. If Steven Spielberg got hold of it he'd turn it into a blockbuster. One of the best reads i've ever had.

And Neil, we never got a definitive answer on the details of where the starch was from. In your experience with all things fish food have you any idea where indeed it's derived from? Or is it truly a top secret that only a handful of the hikari top guys are entrusted with, and whatever it is, could we really be decreasing the lifespans of our fish by using these products?

And furthermore, if hikari, or any other supplier, were to hold their hands up and say that these fillers and such aren't good and that they'd only use top notch ingredients in future, then would we not be looking at huge price hikes?
 

Matteus

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Just finished reading the whole thread from 10 yrs ago from the link that RD. RD. posted in his post #37. This stuff is gold dust, I highly recommend it. If Steven Spielberg got hold of it he'd turn it into a blockbuster. One of the best reads i've ever had.

And Neil, we never got a definitive answer on the details of where the starch was from. In your experience with all things fish food have you any idea where indeed it's derived from? Or is it truly a top secret that only a handful of the hikari top guys are entrusted with, and whatever it is, could we really be decreasing the lifespans of our fish by using these products?

And furthermore, if hikari, or any other supplier, were to hold their hands up and say that these fillers and such aren't good and that they'd only use top notch ingredients in future, then would we not be looking at huge price hikes?
That would be kinda ****ty considering they are already at such a high price ?
 
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RD.

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And Neil, we never got a definitive answer on the details of where the starch was from. In your experience with all things fish food have you any idea where indeed it's derived from? Or is it truly a top secret that only a handful of the hikari top guys are entrusted with, and whatever it is, could we really be decreasing the lifespans of our fish by using these products?

And furthermore, if hikari, or any other supplier, were to hold their hands up and say that these fillers and such aren't good and that they'd only use top notch ingredients in future, then would we not be looking at huge price hikes?
Nope, I could only speculate, and I'd rather not. It was I thought a simple question, that would result in a simple answer. Hikari has a long history of using lower cost cereal ingredients, including in their foods designed specifically for carnivores, so no real surprise that they did the same with Massivore.


Carnivore Pellets:
Fish meal, krill meal, brewers dried yeast, cassava starch, soybean meal, wheat starch, fish oil, wheat flour, dried seaweed meal, spirulina, DL-methionine, potato starch, astaxanthin, L-lysine, canthaxanthin, garlic, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized vitamin C), inositol, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, vitamin A supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, niacin, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, ferrous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, red 3 (artificial color).


Feeding fish excessive amounts does far more harm than using fillers in a formula, but yes, at the end of the day the higher the quality the raw ingredient, the higher the costs, which ultimately trickle downstream to consumers.
 

HenryC

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The ingredients are impressive! Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. I haven't fed something like wardley's, I have a general idea of what to avoid, particularly stuff that does not begin with animal protein as main ingredient. Been looking at several interviews of Pablo in youtube, and he does look like a guy who knows his stuff. A true veteran odf the hobby. It does seem that the whole Aquarium Coop incident was caused by someone young/inpexperienced/recently hired by NLS.

I guess some wheat filler cannot be avoided right? Fish food needs something to bind everything together. Even NLS has it, though surely they use far less than other companies.

What would you recommend for a tank full with tetras and catfish? I've been feeding NLS community .5mm pellets, as well as their community flakes. I've been eyeing the probiotics line from them as well, any experience with these?

Gonna have to take a weekend to go thru your nutrition posts hehe.
 
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Matteus

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The ingredients are impressive! Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. I haven't fed something like wardley's, I have a general idea of what to avoid, particularly stuff that does not begin with animal protein as main ingredient. Been looking at several interviews of Pablo in youtube, and he does look like a guy who knows his stuff. A true veteran odf the hobby. It does seem that the whole Aquarium Coop incident was caused by someone young/inpexperienced/recently hired by NLS.

I guess some wheat filler cannot be avoided right? Fish food needs something to bind everything together. Even NLS has it, though surely they use far less than other companies.

What would you recommend for a tank full with tetras and catfish? I've been feeding NLS community .5mm pellets, as well as their community flakes. I've been eyeing the probiotics line from them as well, any experience with these?

Gonna have to take a weekend to go thru your nutrition posts hehe.
I have been feeding my rays on the probiotix line for a few months now and it seems to be keeping them nice and regular. Was having some constipation issues with one of my rays when she was eating only worms but everything seems to be moving just fine lately.

sounds like you are feeding the tetras just fine imo. I fed my clown loaches nothing but nls for 6-8 months and they have some seriously amazing colours and behave as if they are very healthy. I went with this after I had some issues with them after feeding live snails from an unknown source which was not a great idea.
 

Wharf

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I have been feeding a mix of NLS probiotix (which I think uses thera A as the base) and algaemax. My fish love it. I fed thera-A exclusively to Africans for many years with good results. I do have a bag of Northfin veggie/cichlid mix that I supplement too. I think they have good food as well. I tried Dainichi a while back, but my fish have never taken to it...must be the clay :popcorn:
 

thebiggerthebetter

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RD. RD. You are our unsung hero! Can't express how grateful I am for having you in our lives, on this forum, and in our hobby.

esoxlucius esoxlucius You got me intrigued. Now I have to read that thread. Why can't you be more careful with your words? (Hmm, wait a second... why can't I? ... I guess I don't know?...)

HenryC HenryC Welcome mate. It doesn't matter what fish you keep or what their size. We have some members in rough times that are experiencing a break from keeping any fish, so what... It doesn't stop anyone who wants to learn and grow from doing just that.
 
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