Couple of Poly Questions for the Bichir Guru's

[koltsixx]

I've been thinking about getting some Polys and have some general Poly questions and also wanted to ask specifically about Gisela and Endlicheri. How likely are they to jump? I've had a couple of jumpers in the past, specifically a Aro and Gar. Are they more likely to wind up trying to kiss my concrete floor? Not relevant but funny to me one of my tanks was in my bedroom when the Aro jumped in the middle of the night and landed squarely on my face and slapped the heck out of me. I woke up almost pooping my pants, soaking wet with the taste of Aro on my lips not knowing what hit me. Small consolation but I think my face is what saved the Aro from serious injury as it flopped off my face and bed onto the floor. Sorry just a memory that I wanted to share.

As for the Gisela as Hao told me in another thread

Just wanted to inform you that “Polypterus giselas” is just Polypterus congicus from Lake Tanganyika (giselas bichir is the common name).

I was curious is it given a different common name because beyond its catch location its pattern is different? Can I ask what kind of growth rate can I expect from both the "Gisela" and the Endlicheri? Does it make a difference in the Endlis growth rate if the Endli is a platinum? If the Endli also has external gills and they are damaged/nipped on how dangerous is it to the Endli? I worry because I'm unsure if they'd be a prime target for any tankmates. How would a Polypterus get along with a Australian Lungfish? Would the Lung be targeted by the Poly aggression, possibly seeing the Lung as a competitor or target the Lungs fins? Is there anything else you guys feel I should know?

 

[Hao]

As far as jumping. I’d say they are less jumpy than arowanas but more jumpy than gars. But of course that really depends on the individual fish. They definitely can fly out of the tank though. I’ve had a few jump and hit the top of the lid during waterchange when the water is extremely low.

As for the common name, I don’t really know where it came from but likely came out 10+ years ago when those iconic photos of fishermen holding 30”+ specimens (dead ones with some unique markings, compared to classical looking Congicus) first surfaced the web . Their scientific name at the time was Polypterus sp. aff “congicus” meaning a species that resembles the congicus. (Not too much was known about them since non existent in the aquarium trade). The first time they were imported into the aquarium trade was I believe in 2021. Anyway after several imports, it was safe to say they are just another variation of congicus. I have to say though, some people thought they should be a different species. Some were calling them Polypterus sp. “Gisela”, (undescribed species from Gisela) which was improper since Gisela is not a location. Then in 2023, giseok jung did some DNA testing on both congicus from Lake Tanganyika and Congo. The result was that there was not enough difference between the 2 to be considered a separate species. So most of us have accepted that they are just a regional variant of congicus thus now calling them Polypterus congicus “Lake Tanganyika”.

As for pattern, lake Tanganyika congicus have a large variety in patterns. There are plenty of them that have little to no pattern (even less than the Congo ones). There are also plenty with odd/thicker markings. But I’ve noticed Lake Tanganyika congicus tend to have better contrast on various substrates while Congo ones are a bit more sensitive in that regards but again that also comes back to individuality. Every fish will be different of course.

I know people always ask what’s the growth rate for bichirs or what’s their max size in aquarium but the truth is there is no black/white answer when it comes to bichirs. In my experience, their growth rate is random, It’s never really linear. Every bichir will grow differently depending on multiple factors like genetics, appetite, water quality, water volume(tank size), stress, etc. You could buy 5 bichirs from the same batch, and they might all grow at different rates. But generally speaking congicus and endlicheri are usually the fastest growing bichir species.

Normally platinum shouldn’t grow any different from a regular bichir but it’s a little different in this case. Platinum endlicheri in the aquarium trade are usually captive bred (often poor genetics, you would have to pick out a nice one) so they’ll tend to grow slower/stay smaller but again comes back to those factors I mentioned earlier, growth rate will vary.

As for the external gills, it shouldn’t be an issue if it’s nipped or damaged. Most of them lose it quite early (lose it naturally, not from tankmates).

I’ve kept AUL with bichirs before, it’s not really an issue if you only have a few bichirs or there is sufficient space for both. The more bichirs you have the higher the risk of the AUL getting its fin nipped during feeding. I would advise waiting until the AUL is larger before keeping with bichirs so the fins are a bit thicker. Small AUL fins are delicate, you’ll run into the risk of permanently damaging them. Also small AULs are dumb slow when it comes to feeding. They get much faster as adults (but still kind of slow), so not as much of a concern when it comes to feeding by then. I don’t think I’ve ever had a bichir purposely show aggression towards an AUL

Wow, that was a lot, anyway hopefully that was informative/helpful.

 

[SilverArowanaBoi]

Not relevant but funny to me one of my tanks was in my bedroom when the Aro jumped in the middle of the night and landed squarely on my face and slapped the heck out of me. I woke up almost pooping my pants, soaking wet with the taste of Aro on my lips not knowing what hit me. Small consolation but I think my face is what saved the Aro from serious injury as it flopped off my face and bed onto the floor. Sorry just a memory that I wanted to share.

I'm sorry but that is hilarious, I'm sorry that happened but hilarious nonetheless.

 

[Burbotman]

Hao Very detailed post with great information! For the OP I will say treat all Bichirs as jumpers with a secure (weighted as needed) top. Fortune favours the prepared and its cheap insurance.

 

[koltsixx]

As far as jumping. I’d say they are less jumpy than arowanas but more jumpy than gars. But of course that really depends on the individual fish. They definitely can fly out of the tank though. I’ve had a few jump and hit the top of the lid during waterchange when the water is extremely low.

As for the common name, I don’t really know where it came from but likely came out 10+ years ago when those iconic photos of fishermen holding 30”+ specimens (dead ones with some unique markings, compared to classical looking Congicus) first surfaced the web . Their scientific name at the time was Polypterus sp. aff “congicus” meaning a species that resembles the congicus. (Not too much was known about them since non existent in the aquarium trade). The first time they were imported into the aquarium trade was I believe in 2021. Anyway after several imports, it was safe to say they are just another variation of congicus. I have to say though, some people thought they should be a different species. Some were calling them Polypterus sp. “Gisela”, (undescribed species from Gisela) which was improper since Gisela is not a location. Then in 2023, giseok jung did some DNA testing on both congicus from Lake Tanganyika and Congo. The result was that there was not enough difference between the 2 to be considered a separate species. So most of us have accepted that they are just a regional variant of congicus thus now calling them Polypterus congicus “Lake Tanganyika”.

As for pattern, lake Tanganyika congicus have a large variety in patterns. There are plenty of them that have little to no pattern (even less than the Congo ones). There are also plenty with odd/thicker markings. But I’ve noticed Lake Tanganyika congicus tend to have better contrast on various substrates while Congo ones are a bit more sensitive in that regards but again that also comes back to individuality. Every fish will be different of course.

I know people always ask what’s the growth rate for bichirs or what’s their max size in aquarium but the truth is there is no black/white answer when it comes to bichirs. In my experience, their growth rate is random, It’s never really linear. Every bichir will grow differently depending on multiple factors like genetics, appetite, water quality, water volume(tank size), stress, etc. You could buy 5 bichirs from the same batch, and they might all grow at different rates. But generally speaking congicus and endlicheri are usually the fastest growing bichir species.

Normally platinum shouldn’t grow any different from a regular bichir but it’s a little different in this case. Platinum endlicheri in the aquarium trade are usually captive bred (often poor genetics, you would have to pick out a nice one) so they’ll tend to grow slower/stay smaller but again comes back to those factors I mentioned earlier, growth rate will vary.

As for the external gills, it shouldn’t be an issue if it’s nipped or damaged. Most of them lose it quite early (lose it naturally, not from tankmates).

I’ve kept AUL with bichirs before, it’s not really an issue if you only have a few bichirs or there is sufficient space for both. The more bichirs you have the higher the risk of the AUL getting its fin nipped during feeding. I would advise waiting until the AUL is larger before keeping with bichirs so the fins are a bit thicker. Small AUL fins are delicate, you’ll run into the risk of permanently damaging them. Also small AULs are dumb slow when it comes to feeding. They get much faster as adults (but still kind of slow), so not as much of a concern when it comes to feeding by then. I don’t think I’ve ever had a bichir purposely show aggression towards an AUL

Wow, that was a lot, anyway hopefully that was informative/helpful.

Thread killer. Bro, who's going to respond to my thread after a detailed answer like that? Seriously though, thank you for that awesome answer. I was worried they'd be like ropefish which IME seem to actively seek getting out of the tank. I figured they'd be able to jump as that body of theirs is built for short bursts of speed. Can I ask how likely are they to get spooked? I see a lot of no deco Poly tanks. Is that necessary? My apologies you did cover a lot but as I read your answers, I found more questions coming up as I'd like to give them the best environment possible. I had wanted Polys for a while but the jumping possibility alone gave me pause. The Aro I mentioned was fine, but I did lose a Shortnose Gar one night and it was devastating to me.
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Thanks for clearing up the species thing. I had figured from your response in the fist thread it was a regional variant but was unaware such conclusive scientific DNA research was done. Pretty cool, it's one of the reasons I wanted to be a Poly guy, besides how interesting and cool I find the genus I've also got a lot of respect for the dedication of the hobbyists who own them. I also appreciate you clearing up that Gisela is a location as that was my assumption. So the variant is from Lake Tanganyika, definitely important to know.

I had hoped the "Gisela"(sorry I like that better than Polypterus congicus “Lake Tanganyika”) had a more intricate pattern. Wes, has some Gisela(it's also much easier to type) and I was thinking of getting one from him. Now I know to ask for one with hopefully the most intricate and stable pattern. Poor Wes, I'm always asking him stuff.

Thanks for the answer on growth. I'm aware individuals will vary but I was curious about in general and you've answered that intricately. The Platinum Endli is a juvenile and I was curious how long I'd have to make special accommodations for him.

I was worried about the external gills and honestly still am. I just feel like they'd be a tempting target to any fish due to their appearance and color. I don't want the Platinum Endli I'm hoping to get, getting stressed or damaged as he still has them.

Can I ask what size the AUL should be when I introduce the Polys? I was thinking about trying the Endli(it's probably a horrible idea) with the Juvenile AUL I have which would be bigger than the Endli. Interestingly I had a bad experience with the AUL and his fins already. A juvenile Cloarotes laticeps decimated the AUL's fins. It was my fault as I should have been more observant but laticeps as far as I knew aren't known to be aggressive and I didn't expect it to target the AUL's fins but it did and all that was left were barely discernible nubes. I thought I'd lose the AUL and was devastated about the amount of damage but luckily the AUL not only pulled through but regrew his fins. The AUL's been isolated from all fish since. And you don't have to tell me how dumb slow juvenile AUL's are at eating. Lol They're slow to find it and eat it. Dude has literally had a pellet fall on his head perfectly perched and slowly scanned left to right looking for it while it remained in place. Thank goodness he eventually decided to look down and it rolled off into his view. Then there's the chewing and spitting out. Several fish I've tried to cohab him with would snatch it out of his mouth.

Again, thank you very much Hao for the very informative response.

 

[Hao]

From personal experience, bichirs can get flighty (tendency to dart when spooked) when the tank is completely bare (no sand, no decor) but again goes back to individual fish, some will just be more flighty than others and while some will be unbothered by the lack of sand/decor. It's mainly wild caught ones that take a little longer to adjust to a bare tank. Bare minimum, I would suggest at least keeping them on sand (no decor is fine, but suggested for some of the shy ones) since some bichirs can develop red streaks/pimples under their belly when kept on bare bottom. Not sure on the cause for that (maybe rubbing its belly on the floor too much?) but the red streaks/pimples always vanish when sand/gravel is introduced. Of course, bichirs like most fish will adjust and get less skittish over time (whether or not you provide decor). If you do provide decor though, don't expect to see your bichir too often (except maybe during feeding). Most likely it will hide if given the chance (although some bichirs will hang out in front and not hide, but yah goes back to the fish's individuality).
If you are able to keep your arowana contained, your bichir should be fine. Just keep lids secure and watch for small gaps (if its a small bichir).

Yeah bichirs can be quite diverse. You could buy 10 of the same species from the same batch (example: 10 Polypterus congicus from Lake Tanganyika), they each could potentially have a different head shape, different shade/color, and different markings/pattern. Which is why bichirs can be addicting to some people.

Most of us polypterus keeper try to avoid using common name since some of them are very generic and can lead to confusion. But totally understandable with the Gisela part.
The thing is Wes might have them on barebottom/light color substrate so they might be washed out and potentially all look identical to him (due to lack of markings/pattern).

As for platinum endlicheri, my friend got a nice one about 6-7 months ago. He grew it from 4" to about 13", which is quite fast for a platinum endli. I know people who have grown out baby platinum endli for 2-3 years and their fish is only 8"-12". There are some who have a 16"-18" after 5-8 years. I've also seen individuals with 20"-24" as quick as 3-4 years and as slow as 10+ years. Vast majority of platinum endlicheri I've seen tend to stop around 12"-16". The growth rate for bichirs is really all over the place unlike Arowanas (generaly you'll get somewhat linear 1"-1.5" growth per month til 16"-18" or something). It really depends on the fish and the care provided. This is also why in general, big bichirs cost a lot in comparison to their baby counter parts, especially 20"+ specimens. Raising a bichir from young to 20"+ is no easy feature.

Regarding AUL size, I don't really have a size recommendation. I've seen people mix small bichirs with small AUL (like 6") without any issue but personally that seems too risky for me (fins). I've also seen someone mix 15"-16" AUL with 10-15x 12"-20" bichirs with no issue. It really depends on your own comfort level as well and how many bichirs you plan to keep with it. Trial and error I guess? I first put my AUL with bichirs (4x 6"-7" senegals) when it was about 11"-12". That felt comfortable for me since I knew those senegals were pretty chill when it came to feeding time. If it's just going to be a platinum endlicheri, as long as the AUL is bigger, it should be alright. Just keep an eye on feeding time, the bichir would probably try to snatch the food from AUL's mouth so maybe throw extra food for the both of them.

 

[SilverArowanaBoi]

This should be stickied since it has so much detailed information.

 

[koltsixx]

I had a feeling they could be flighty. It means I have to exercise greater care when choosing tankmates. I've found that more and more true the longer I'm in the hobby. At first my major considerations were aggression, tank size and possible decor. Now I'm paying attention to feeding habits, fish activity and inquisitiveness. I've mostly kept Cichlids and Catfish so in most cases there was an easy predictable status quo. Thanks for the heads up on the bare bottom and decor. Going to have to probably be more careful consider things before buying the Gisela specifically. The Endli I have some options for housing.

Its part of the draw for me to, I really like the intricate patterns. By the way speaking of intricate patterns, I'm not sure this is a PBB but it's one of the videos that firsts got me interested in Polys. And I'm not sure if I'm bugging or not but I feel like Wes had some PBB's in recent history and I didn't pull the trigger because of their size and I was worried they'd jump and I'd lose such a magnificent fish. A serious regret of mine.

I can totally understand that. I wasn't even aware there were common names for Polys. Perhaps because I'm on here I always see them referred to by their scientific name as far as I've seen anyway. And yeah, I didn't think of that with Wes. Still, I'll probably ask him to choose out one to the best of his abilities under the circumstances.

Wow, that was rollercoaster. I was hyped hearing 13" in 7 months and then 2-3 years for 8-12 totally squashed that. It only got worse as I read on.lol I was hoping for strong initial growth to around 12 inches, after that I would have been cool with the long haul to put on more size. Speaking of size though can I ask when Polys reach sexual maturity? I believe I had heard they take an exceptionally long amount of time to become mature. And may I ask is it feasible for an aquarist to breed them? And what conditions would be necessary?

The AUL is larger, I'm not positive on the exact size but approx. 8". Would that be okay with a 4" Plat Endli? Throwing some extra food in shouldn't be an issue as they'd be the only fish, maybe two juvenile Cuban Gars as well.

Again Hao Thank you very much for the detailed info. As I've gotten older I've become a more dedicated hobbyist and I really appreciate being informed so I can hopefully give my fish the best care possible.

 

[koltsixx]

This should be stickied since it has so much detailed information.

While I agree the info. is detailed and beyond what might be found in many threads, I'm not sure it's sticky worthy because it's fairly species specific. As it is I feel the sticky section is often overlooked and maybe in fact be a tad bloated in certain forum sections. I think the sticky sections might benefit from editing and possible merging of some of the threads. Then adding a table of contents to where relevant content is. Perhaps even stating the date, etc the section was created so people can get an idea of how up to date the content is or isn't. I'd like to see those who worked so hard on the threads acknowledged but I'd also like it that readers would know that not all the info. maybe applicable any longer.

 

[Hao]

Just an FYI, Polypterus bichir bichir (PBB) and Polypterus bichir lapradei (lap) are no longer valid subspecies in scientific terms. They have been combined as Polypterus bichir. Personally, I don't really agree with the reclassification, but it is what it is. Most of us hobbyist still refer to them as PBB and laps as common name since we find them somewhat different, and their pricing is also quite different.

What size "PBB" did Wes have if you remember? Because as far as I'm aware the sub 20" ones were imported by his business partner and those were misidentified, Polypterus bichir from Nigeria (Nigerian Lapradei, most commonly imported P. bichir) and not the Polypterus bichir from Chad (PBB generally from Lake Chad/Lake Fitri, not really imported too often). His business partner did import a legit PBB that was 28"-30" but I'm not sure if you were referring to that specimen or the smaller ones.

But yes the one swimming in the video is a PBB. This collection belonged to Mike Wai, ex-polypterus keeper from Malaysia. Unfortunately he doesn't keep bichirs anymore.

As for sexual maturity, that is also hard to say. I believe different species/different individuals will sexually mature at different rates. But generally, 3-5 years is when they are considered sexually mature. As for breeding bichirs, it definitely has been done by many individuals around the world. giseok jung is quite skilled in this department, definitely check out his bichir breeding threads and feel free to ask him in that regards. My knowledge on breeding bichirs is very limited.

8" AUL with 4" platinum endlicheri is something I probably would feel quite comfortable with but yeah proceed with caution.