Couple of Poly Questions for the Bichir Guru's

[koltsixx]

Just an FYI, Polypterus bichir bichir (PBB) and Polypterus bichir lapradei (lap) are no longer valid subspecies in scientific terms. They have been combined as Polypterus bichir. Personally, I don't really agree with the reclassification, but it is what it is. Most of us hobbyist still refer to them as PBB and laps as common name since we find them somewhat different, and their pricing is also quite different.

Wow, I was always under the impression PBB was very distinct so I would never have guessed it'd be combined with lapradei. I'm so sorry for always hitting you up with questions but could I ask is there a good source for PBB? It's actually the Polypterus I wanted the most.

What size "PBB" did Wes have if you remember? Because as far as I'm aware the sub 20" ones were imported by his business partner and those were misidentified, Polypterus bichir from Nigeria (Nigerian Lapradei, most commonly imported P. bichir) and not the Polypterus bichir from Chad (PBB generally from Lake Chad/Lake Fitri, not really imported too often). His business partner did import a legit PBB that was 28"-30" but I'm not sure if you were referring to that specimen or the smaller ones.

I quickly looked through my old emails and the list was from 3-21-2023 and they were listed as PBB- Lake Chad-16". So, they were Lapradei? Still regret not picking them up if they're not often imported but feel a little better knowing I didn't miss out on a true PBB.

But yes the one swimming in the video is a PBB. This collection belonged to Mike Wai, ex-polypterus keeper from Malaysia. Unfortunately he doesn't keep bichirs anymore.

Very cool, the pattern on it is amazing. That video as I said was one of the things that first inspired my interest in Bichir. It really is a pity he doesn't keep them anymore.

As for sexual maturity, that is also hard to say. I believe different species/different individuals will sexually mature at different rates. But generally, 3-5 years is when they are considered sexually mature. As for breeding bichirs, it definitely has been done by many individuals around the world. giseok jung is quite skilled in this department, definitely check out his bichir breeding threads and feel free to ask him in that regards. My knowledge on breeding bichirs is very limited.

3-5 years, not bad I thought it was longer. I was going to ask if size also played a role and I know they can be visually sexed but I'll do as you suggested and check out giseok jung threads. I've harassed you enough.

8" AUL with 4" platinum endlicheri is something I probably would feel quite comfortable with but yeah proceed with caution.

Thanks for the advice. I know I probably sound like a broken record but again I really do appreciate you going through the effort to answer my questions. Thank you Hao

 

[Hao]

Wow, I was always under the impression PBB was very distinct so I would never have guessed it'd be combined with lapradei. I'm so sorry for always hitting you up with questions but could I ask is there a good source for PBB? It's actually the Polypterus I wanted the most.



I quickly looked through my old emails and the list was from 3-21-2023 and they were listed as PBB- Lake Chad-16". So, they were Lapradei? Still regret not picking them up if they're not often imported but feel a little better knowing I didn't miss out on a true PBB.



Very cool, the pattern on it is amazing. That video as I said was one of the things that first inspired my interest in Bichir. It really is a pity he doesn't keep them anymore.


3-5 years, not bad I thought it was longer. I was going to ask if size also played a role and I know they can be visually sexed but I'll do as you suggested and check out giseok jung threads. I've harassed you enough.


Thanks for the advice. I know I probably sound like a broken record but again I really do appreciate you going through the effort to answer my questions. Thank you Hao

Rehoboth Aquatics (Toyin) is probably one of the best bichir importers in the US. He's been importing bichirs for 20+ years now I believe. Anyway, with that said, I believe he has PBB from Lake Chad in stock at the moment. I believe they are 14"-16" and 18"-20" (I believe 1 thats 22"-24"). You can message him through facebook or instagram. I'd advise giving him a call though (number is on his facebook page, seems like the best form of communication from what I've heard). I've bought from Toyin since 2009 (via messaging).

Yeah those are lapradei. I've seen the fish that their business partner have at the shop before. Personally never seen a legit one from them besides the 28"-30" I mentioned. Unless the ones listed are different ones that Wes is hiding at his place (from a separate shipment/import) which is unlikely since Wes isn't really a bichir type of guy.

Size not so much since often times bichirs don't grow too their full potential. giseok jung has a female weeksii (he's been trying to be the first to breed that species) thats only about 12" (hes had it for 8 years since 3"). But generally speaking female bichirs do get larger and thicker than the male ones.

 

[Hao]

I had a feeling they could be flighty. It means I have to exercise greater care when choosing tankmates. I've found that more and more true the longer I'm in the hobby. At first my major considerations were aggression, tank size and possible decor. Now I'm paying attention to feeding habits, fish activity and inquisitiveness. I've mostly kept Cichlids and Catfish so in most cases there was an easy predictable status quo. Thanks for the heads up on the bare bottom and decor. Going to have to probably be more careful consider things before buying the Gisela specifically. The Endli I have some options for housing.

Its part of the draw for me to, I really like the intricate patterns. By the way speaking of intricate patterns, I'm not sure this is a PBB but it's one of the videos that firsts got me interested in Polys. And I'm not sure if I'm bugging or not but I feel like Wes had some PBB's in recent history and I didn't pull the trigger because of their size and I was worried they'd jump and I'd lose such a magnificent fish. A serious regret of mine.

I can totally understand that. I wasn't even aware there were common names for Polys. Perhaps because I'm on here I always see them referred to by their scientific name as far as I've seen anyway. And yeah, I didn't think of that with Wes. Still, I'll probably ask him to choose out one to the best of his abilities under the circumstances.

Wow, that was rollercoaster. I was hyped hearing 13" in 7 months and then 2-3 years for 8-12 totally squashed that. It only got worse as I read on.lol I was hoping for strong initial growth to around 12 inches, after that I would have been cool with the long haul to put on more size. Speaking of size though can I ask when Polys reach sexual maturity? I believe I had heard they take an exceptionally long amount of time to become mature. And may I ask is it feasible for an aquarist to breed them? And what conditions would be necessary?

The AUL is larger, I'm not positive on the exact size but approx. 8". Would that be okay with a 4" Plat Endli? Throwing some extra food in shouldn't be an issue as they'd be the only fish, maybe two juvenile Cuban Gars as well.

Again Hao Thank you very much for the detailed info. As I've gotten older I've become a more dedicated hobbyist and I really appreciate being informed so I can hopefully give my fish the best care possible.

Little off topic but I just noticed you said 2 juvenile Cuban gars? I assume its the ones from Predatory Fins. If so those were bred by giseok jung 's friend in Korea. Pretty neat stuff.

 

[koltsixx]

Rehoboth Aquatics (Toyin) is probably one of the best bichir importers in the US. He's been importing bichirs for 20+ years now I believe. Anyway, with that said, I believe he has PBB from Lake Chad in stock at the moment. I believe they are 14"-16" and 18"-20" (I believe 1 thats 22"-24"). You can message him through facebook or instagram. I'd advise giving him a call though (number is on his facebook page, seems like the best form of communication from what I've heard). I've bought from Toyin since 2009 (via messaging).

Yeah those are lapradei. I've seen the fish that their business partner have at the shop before. Personally never seen a legit one from them besides the 28"-30" I mentioned. Unless the ones listed are different ones that Wes is hiding at his place (from a separate shipment/import) which is unlikely since Wes isn't really a bichir type of guy.

Size not so much since often times bichirs don't grow too their full potential. giseok jung has a female weeksii (he's been trying to be the first to breed that species) thats only about 12" (hes had it for 8 years since 3"). But generally speaking female bichirs do get larger and thicker than the male ones.

Thanks again Hao . I'll message Toyin and update here when if I get any of the Polys.

Like you I doubt Wes has different Polys than his partner. Currently all Wes has listed I believe are the Gisela which while looking back at his lists for the PBB I did see he originally listed the Gisela as Polypterus cf. Congicus Lake Tanganyika. Yeah, I know he's not much of a Bichir guy, but he does get some great fish. The AUL is from him.

It was a stupid thought on my end. Just between me not really hearing of them being bred in captivity by average aquarists(this could easily be my own ignorance) and me vaguely remembering reading somewhere they take a long time to mature I thought size may also play a role. I had that the females get bigger, but I also thought there was something with the anal fin that differentiated the sexes as well. Vague memories of things I think I once gleamed. Again, I'll just read through giseok jung threads.

Little off topic but I just noticed you said 2 juvenile Cuban gars? I assume its the ones from Predatory Fins. If so those were bred by giseok jung 's friend in Korea. Pretty neat stuff.

Yes, I got them from Predatory and yeah that is neat, it's a small world. I currently have the 2 Cubans and a "Pied" Florida? The Florida I have to find a place for. Everywhere I put him he gets outcompeted. I'm forced to tong feed him while keeping the other fish back. I'm trying to get my basement remodeled so I can make one room a dedicated fishroom so I can get even more tanks to better cohab the fish I have. Again thank you Hao

 

[giseok jung]

Hi, maturing of bichirs are quite depend on species and individual but usually CB maeture faster than WC, and the "Senegalus" group of species do it fastest (~1 or 2 years) and weeksii group (except ornatipinnis) do slowest (~10 years in my opinion).

The fastest case I've ever saw was captive bred P. polli and senegalus and they can be bred almost an year after they born.

And seem lower jaw type of bichirs do maetured quite faster than many people think, In my case, Polypterus bichir (CB Nigerian lapradei X WC Koloton) which hatched in August 11th, 2020 successfully spawn in June 18th, 2023 so it took less than 3 years.

 

[giseok jung]

Hi, maturing of bichirs are quite depend on species and individual but usually CB maeture faster than WC, and the "Senegalus" group of species do it fastest (~1 or 2 years) and weeksii group (except ornatipinnis) do slowest (~10 years in my opinion).

The fastest case I've ever saw was captive bred P. polli and senegalus and they can be bred almost an year after they born.

And seem lower jaw type of bichirs do maetured quite faster than many people think, In my case, Polypterus bichir (CB Nigerian lapradei X WC Koloton) which hatched in August 11th, 2020 successfully spawn in June 18th, 2023 so it took less than 3 years.

Interestingly, maeturing speed is also depend on it's strain and individuals too.
Usually captive breed P. delhezi from indonesia and the strain I cross breed them with WC takes around 2~3 years to maeture and can produce next generations.

But my WF1 delhezi (WC * WC) took more than 4 years to be maetured and still produce very very small numbers of offsprings till now because of maeturing problem.

 

[koltsixx]

Hi, maturing of bichirs are quite depend on species and individual but usually CB maeture faster than WC, and the "Senegalus" group of species do it fastest (~1 or 2 years) and weeksii group (except ornatipinnis) do slowest (~10 years in my opinion).

The fastest case I've ever saw was captive bred P. polli and senegalus and they can be bred almost an year after they born.

And seem lower jaw type of bichirs do maetured quite faster than many people think, In my case, Polypterus bichir (CB Nigerian lapradei X WC Koloton) which hatched in August 11th, 2020 successfully spawn in June 18th, 2023 so it took less than 3 years.

Thank you giseok jung . I was unaware the CB Polys mature faster than WC, a great bit of info. I had a feeling Weeksii would be one of the slower to mature Polys. And it's very good to know Lapradei and Koloton can possibly breed in 3 years. Can I ask do you know approximately how long a Endlicheri might take to reach sexual maturity.

Interestingly, maeturing speed is also depend on it's strain and individuals too.
Usually captive breed P. delhezi from indonesia and the strain I cross breed them with WC takes around 2~3 years to maeture and can produce next generations.

But my WF1 delhezi (WC * WC) took more than 4 years to be maetured and still produce very very small numbers of offsprings till now because of maeturing problem.

Again, a great bit of knowledge to know, thank you. It's sad though that your experience with the WF1 Delhezi took so long to mature and have had a small amount of offspring. I'm definitely going to read through your other threads. I know there's going to be a wealth of knowledge in there. Again thank you.

 

[giseok jung]

Thank you giseok jung . I was unaware the CB Polys mature faster than WC, a great bit of info. I had a feeling Weeksii would be one of the slower to mature Polys. And it's very good to know Lapradei and Koloton can possibly breed in 3 years. Can I ask do you know approximately how long a Endlicheri might take to reach sexual maturity.


Again, a great bit of knowledge to know, thank you. It's sad though that your experience with the WF1 Delhezi took so long to mature and have had a small amount of offspring. I'm definitely going to read through your other threads. I know there's going to be a wealth of knowledge in there. Again thank you.

I personally don't have no experience with endlicheri breeding but CB endli are known as even faster maeture than P. bichir so i think it will take only 1 or 2 years. But about WC specimens, I have no idea about that.

 

[koltsixx]

I personally don't have no experience with endlicheri breeding but CB endli are known as even faster maeture than P. bichir so i think it will take only 1 or 2 years. But about WC specimens, I have no idea about that.

Thank you very much giseok jung again I really appreciate the info.

 

[HumanBean]

Wow that was a very informative discussion around bichjrs and their respective location. Made my day (morning commutes are boring). Sorry I wanted to ask a question Hao if there is a website for Rehoboth aquatics? Not able to get a response from them via email either.

I have kept bichirs and gars in past and now planning to keep some location specific variants l. Have difficulty sourcing them where I live.

But thanks again for sharing the knowledge.