Hikari vs. NLS

neutrino

Goliath Tigerfish
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Jan 22, 2013
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Welcome to MFK. I just looked at cyphos, nice Frontosa forum they are my favorite African.
Thanks. :thumbsup:

After doing (mostly) Africans for years I finally converted back to focusing on new worlds a couple of years ago, which is where I started in the hobby (also some oddballs). Was kind of ready for a change, anyway, but it was primarily all the geos (and others) that are new in the hobby since I did them many years ago that I couldn't resist anymore. There are a few Tangs still on my wish list, but at this point the only African I'm keeping anymore are my Kapampa fronts.
 

RD.

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neutrino ...... good to see you here on MFK.



Meanwhile, during the same years I started doing a good bit of reading on fish health, nutrition, etc. and, suffice it to say, since doing so I would not feed my fish any product with the high ash content of some of the Hikari products (17% in Massivore, are you kidding me?) or with something as ambiguously identified as "Starch" listed high on their ingredients list.
The mystery starch listed up near the front of the line on the ingredient list bothers me a lot more than the ash content, but I agree, from a consumers perspective both should cause one to go hmmmmm.

There is one explanation for a higher than typical ash level that one generally sees in most foods that I thought was worth mentioning. Not that I believe this is the reason for the 17% ash content in Massivore, but if a company utilizes a low quantity of starch, by reducing the overall carb content they are essentially causing the rest of the numbers in the overall nutrient analysis to go up, including the ash content. Make sense?

As an example, say a company that generally used 40% starch in their various formulas figures out a way to reduce that percentage to 15%, if the ash content prior to that formula change was typically 10%, it's got to be a lot higher once that starch level drops by 25 points. This is why one can have a food with a very low ash content, yet be filled with nothing but fluff from corn, wheat, rice, soybeans, etc.

Personally I could live with 15% ash content, if I knew for a fact that the carb/starch content in the food was only 10%. New Era food out of the UK got part of it right by using a lower quantity of starch (14% I believe?) in most of their foods, but by doing so ended with a whopping 20% ash content. Their two top ingredients by dry weight were fish meal (I'm guessing white fish meal) and shrimp meal - both of which are typically rather high in ash content due to the amount of scales & bones found in those meals. They had the right idea with the starch end of it, but then failed on the main ingredients by attempting to save some $$$. 20% ash content is pretty hefty, no matter how low the starch content is.
 

seel1990

Feeder Fish
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Dec 2, 2009
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neutrino ...... good to see you here on MFK.





The mystery starch listed up near the front of the line on the ingredient list bothers me a lot more than the ash content, but I agree, from a consumers perspective both should cause one to go hmmmmm.

There is one explanation for a higher than typical ash level that one generally sees in most foods that I thought was worth mentioning. Not that I believe this is the reason for the 17% ash content in Massivore, but if a company utilizes a low quantity of starch, by reducing the overall carb content they are essentially causing the rest of the numbers in the overall nutrient analysis to go up, including the ash content. Make sense?

As an example, say a company that generally used 40% starch in their various formulas figures out a way to reduce that percentage to 15%, if the ash content prior to that formula change was typically 10%, it's got to be a lot higher once that starch level drops by 25 points. This is why one can have a food with a very low ash content, yet be filled with nothing but fluff from corn, wheat, rice, soybeans, etc.

Personally I could live with 15% ash content, if I knew for a fact that the carb/starch content in the food was only 10%. New Era food out of the UK got part of it right by using a lower quantity of starch (14% I believe?) in most of their foods, but by doing so ended with a whopping 20% ash content. Their two top ingredients by dry weight were fish meal (I'm guessing white fish meal) and shrimp meal - both of which are typically rather high in ash content due to the amount of scales & bones found in those meals. They had the right idea with the starch end of it, but then failed on the main ingredients by attempting to save some $$$. 20% ash content is pretty hefty, no matter how low the starch content is.
RD what are your thoughts on new era? Would be interested to know



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neutrino

Goliath Tigerfish
MFK Member
Jan 22, 2013
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neutrino ...... good to see you here on MFK.
Thanks Neil :thumbsup:

Has a lot to do with going from mostly Africans back to mostly SAs again. Not sure how much time I'll have to spend here (my forum time in general is usually somewhat limited these days and I'm still a mod on cyphos), but should find time to add my 2 cents here and there.

Interesting about the ash juggling that can take place.
 

RD.

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seel - I posted the following last year when asked the same question.

IMO some of the Pros & Cons are as follows.

Pros

1. far less carbohydrate than found in many tropical fish foods, which is a good thing as most species of fish can only assimilate so much carbohydrate, especially terrestrial based plant matter such as corn, soybean, etc.


2.Better vitamin/mineral supplementation than a lot of the commercial foods out there.


3. A "soft & moist" food with a water content of approx 20% which equates to being more palatable to some fussy eaters. This also makes feeding easier for those that don't have the skills or patience to pellet train more finicky fish with more dense/dry pellets. I have never had any issues with this, but I realize that some people do.



Cons


1. Limited ingredients in many of the formulas. As an example, the Central/South American formula contains no aquatic plant matter, which is odd, as most of the CA/SA species would consume at least some plant matter on a regular basis, even those classified as being carnivorous. (via the stomach content of their prey) Apparently New Era's work-around for this is to feed several of their formulas on a rotation basis. I'm not too sure that the vast majority of consumers are going to want to follow that type of feeding regime, but hey, what do I know - I'm a nutrition nerd, not a marketing genius.



2. Very high Ash content, quite frankly the highest that I have ever seen, even when including some of the cheapest foods that come out of Asia. Approx 20% Ash content across the board in all of their formulas, and this is with 20% water content in the food - remove 50% of the water to equal the moisture content in most other dry foods, and that ash content would be even higher! Part of this would be due to utilizing less starch/carbs in their formulas, which tends to push up all of the other numbers, the rest I can only assume comes from the fish/shrimp ingredients. As an example, when ingredients such as fish meal are derived from processing plant waste (which is very common in the fish food industry) it typically has a very high ash content due to the fish meal being mostly comprised of heads, bones, and scales. Essentially the leftover "racks" of the fish, vs a fish meal such as Herring meal which is comprised of the "whole" fish. The same would apply if one was using leftover shrimp parts, vs whole krill.



3. High moisture content. This can definitely be a pro when training fish to eat a pellet as soft food is generally more palatable. The downside is that the consumer is paying for that water (anyone can pre-soak their own pellets if they feel the need), and if the food isn't stored properly it has the potential to spoil much easier. With higher moisture content there is a higher risk of mold, and rancidity of fat, unless that food contains a significant amount of synthetic preservatives, such as ethoxyquin, BHA, BHT, etc, yet I see no preservatives listed in the New Era specs? Hmmmmm. The shelf life is listed as 2 years, so something beyond just natural tocopherols (such as vitamins C & E) must be allowing a shelf life of 2 years.


The entire "low temp" cooking process is a bit of a farce, as any company could state they use low temps. There is no industry standard with regards to low temp extrusion in pet foods. I've seen commercial pet foods cooked at 90C referred to as "low temp". When I enquired about New Era's extrusion temps one of the top New Era reps in the UK responded by basically saying that he could not tell me the exact temps.

BTW - interesting name that they chose, don't you think?
"New Era" .... "New Life". Probably just a coinkydink. ;)
 

Miguel

Ole Dawg
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Dec 28, 2006
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You just stay right in, Mr Neutrino. We need knowledgeable guys on this and other issues.

Be most wellcome!
 

seel1990

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Dec 2, 2009
947
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0
uk
seel - I posted the following last year when asked the same question.

IMO some of the Pros & Cons are as follows.

Pros

1. far less carbohydrate than found in many tropical fish foods, which is a good thing as most species of fish can only assimilate so much carbohydrate, especially terrestrial based plant matter such as corn, soybean, etc.


2.Better vitamin/mineral supplementation than a lot of the commercial foods out there.


3. A "soft & moist" food with a water content of approx 20% which equates to being more palatable to some fussy eaters. This also makes feeding easier for those that don't have the skills or patience to pellet train more finicky fish with more dense/dry pellets. I have never had any issues with this, but I realize that some people do.



Cons


1. Limited ingredients in many of the formulas. As an example, the Central/South American formula contains no aquatic plant matter, which is odd, as most of the CA/SA species would consume at least some plant matter on a regular basis, even those classified as being carnivorous. (via the stomach content of their prey) Apparently New Era's work-around for this is to feed several of their formulas on a rotation basis. I'm not too sure that the vast majority of consumers are going to want to follow that type of feeding regime, but hey, what do I know - I'm a nutrition nerd, not a marketing genius.



2. Very high Ash content, quite frankly the highest that I have ever seen, even when including some of the cheapest foods that come out of Asia. Approx 20% Ash content across the board in all of their formulas, and this is with 20% water content in the food - remove 50% of the water to equal the moisture content in most other dry foods, and that ash content would be even higher! Part of this would be due to utilizing less starch/carbs in their formulas, which tends to push up all of the other numbers, the rest I can only assume comes from the fish/shrimp ingredients. As an example, when ingredients such as fish meal are derived from processing plant waste (which is very common in the fish food industry) it typically has a very high ash content due to the fish meal being mostly comprised of heads, bones, and scales. Essentially the leftover "racks" of the fish, vs a fish meal such as Herring meal which is comprised of the "whole" fish. The same would apply if one was using leftover shrimp parts, vs whole krill.



3. High moisture content. This can definitely be a pro when training fish to eat a pellet as soft food is generally more palatable. The downside is that the consumer is paying for that water (anyone can pre-soak their own pellets if they feel the need), and if the food isn't stored properly it has the potential to spoil much easier. With higher moisture content there is a higher risk of mold, and rancidity of fat, unless that food contains a significant amount of synthetic preservatives, such as ethoxyquin, BHA, BHT, etc, yet I see no preservatives listed in the New Era specs? Hmmmmm. The shelf life is listed as 2 years, so something beyond just natural tocopherols (such as vitamins C & E) must be allowing a shelf life of 2 years.


The entire "low temp" cooking process is a bit of a farce, as any company could state they use low temps. There is no industry standard with regards to low temp extrusion in pet foods. I've seen commercial pet foods cooked at 90C referred to as "low temp". When I enquired about New Era's extrusion temps one of the top New Era reps in the UK responded by basically saying that he could not tell me the exact temps.

BTW - interesting name that they chose, don't you think?
"New Era" .... "New Life". Probably just a coinkydink. ;)
Lol... That's what I thought! Once again appreciate it.


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