Weld-on #40 and #42

[wednesday13]

Also wear a good pair of glasses or goggles....hot plastic pieces are no fun in ur eyes lol. Not a bad idea to wear a mask during the glueing or cutting process either. glue (#40) and acrylic sawdust are pretty toxic when inhaled

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[Phixer]

Well you know I like the stuff Wednesday. The fab shop just finished my pieces with a CNC and put a 5 degree bevel on the edges so Im getting closer to gluing it up now. Wish you were closer to check it out.

I think the main thing that has limited it's popularity has been the disclaimer about annealing the acrylic and the propensity for bubbles. But like we talked about before and from the research I've done annealing isnt necessary unless the material was significantly stressed during machining and the bubble issue can be mitigated with a shaker or a sucking them out with a needle and syrenge.

Many of the public tanks put together with 40/42 are not annealed.

I would never consider solvent for anything over an inch thick. With the 2 part stuff one has to design the joint in more mechanical fashion IMO, this also lends to the strength of the bond.

Has anyone used heat lamps when curing joints made with 40/42?

 

[wednesday13]

Great info as always Phixer! Glad u commented....Exellent idea on using heat lamps for aneeling aswell i def. Never thought of that. I guess youve cracked the mystery of aneeling a tank to large to fit in an oven lol nice work. I believe this technique would very well work. Ill have to try it and see how it goes.

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[Aquaticfan]

Great thread. Of course you and I have talked Wednesday about all the use and good stuff. I think using the particular products in the best means is most important. I'd see #4 as a fast tack. More like a cynoacrylate. Great for a quick bond to hold something in place but not the best for structural strength and longevity. That's where #40 comes in. I also think if parts are made correctly they are the biggest structural strength. I personally don't see a need for annealling with this stuff. As mentioned before public aquariums don't and they hold larger amounts for long periods of time.

As far as bubbles, you and I have discussed vibration and other methods. Pretty simple if you ask me. One of the Other things I think that can help most people is build a jig for holding your work. Use foam wrap to insulate it. It could be built out of wood or pcv tube that's big enough. Makes it easier to hold your projects in place for applications and curing.


I've got a couple tanks here soon I'm going to polish out and then hit all the seams with #40. I've also decided I want something size wise a little different to fit my needs so I'm going to do a fresh build around 500g. I plan to use the #4 to get the base line tack of the joints and use the #40 for the actual fillet of the seam for strength.

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[Aquaticfan]

Well you know I like the stuff Wednesday. The fab shop just finished my pieces with a CNC and put a 5 degree bevel on the edges so Im getting closer to gluing it up now. Wish you were closer to check it out.

I think the main thing that has limited it's popularity has been the disclaimer about annealing the acrylic and the propensity for bubbles. But like we talked about before and from the research I've done annealing isnt necessary unless the material was significantly stressed during machining and the bubble issue can be mitigated with a shaker or a sucking them out with a needle and syrenge.

Many of the public tanks put together with 40/42 are not annealed.

I would never consider solvent for anything over an inch thick. With the 2 part stuff one has to design the joint in more mechanical fashion IMO, this also lends to the strength of the bond.

Has anyone used heat lamps when curing joints made with 40/42?

I personally wouldn't use anything but a natural cure. Adding heat from lamps could cause issues. I've seen working with various different composites using heat lamps cause bubbles or imperfections. Its not the same as working with a forced air oven or an autoclave oven. Its hard to get quality uniformity of temperature with heat lamps. There will always be a hot zone and cooler zones. It may work just fine but these are my thoughts and experience with other composites. I would also worry it may rapidly over cure the product and could change its strength to be weaker.



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[wednesday13]

Great info Aquaticfan! Always good when everyones opinions finally come together and we all learn more. This thread is really turning out to be an exellent source of info about acrylic. What uve explained about "hot spots" and lamps makes perfect sense. Ive actually tried to bake paint on objects with space heaters and ran into similiar issues of bubbles in areas closest to the heater.

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[Phixer]

Thanks for the gouge! much appreciated. Wonder if circulation fans would mitigate the hot/cold spots and provide a more uniform temp? I've always used an autoclave oven at AIMD or vacuum bags for composite repairs on aircraft flight control surfaces and cowlings but dont have these tools available to me for this project. So I guess room temp might have to do. Cant believe how much the bond strength goes up when it's heated though.


Have you guys had any problems with bubbles using 42 and the applicator gun? Was thinking about squirting it into a cup and then pouring it in. The butt joints are 5 degree bevels.

 

[Aquaticfan]

Thanks for the gouge! much appreciated. Wonder if circulation fans would mitigate the hot/cold spots and provide a more uniform temp? I've always used an autoclave oven at AIMD or vacuum bags for composite repairs on aircraft flight control surfaces and cowlings but dont have these tools available to me for this project. So I guess room temp might have to do. Cant believe how much the bond strength goes up when it's heated though.


Have you guys had any problems with bubbles using 42 and the applicator gun? Was thinking about squirting it into a cup and then pouring it in. The butt joints are 5 degree bevels.

Really for heat to work at its optimum and not give the potential for variances or fluctuations it reall needs to be in a controlled environment. Such as a paint booth that has proper full room air flow and has heat/oven capabilities. While circulation fans may make a difference the issue is how controllable is that. The #40 uses 2 parts. One being the catalyst of course. It uses chemical reaction to create a cure. If there is heat generated from the cure that is a by product. For what were doing a non baked or non heat cured assist I feel personally will yield the best and easiest results with incredible strength.

Acrylics I feel are a little more different then other composites like used in aircraft. Outside of my normal job I get to work with other composites stuff with a private areospace company and we to use vacuum processing and autoclave ovens. But the material and use is different.

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[Phixer]

Gotcha, I'll probably cure it at room temp then. Thanks for the info again.

The surface is matte and feels pretty smooth to the touch despite the amplification. To scrape or not to scrape?

My real concern was getting the cement to bite into the base material if scraped smooth to remove machining marks. If I leave a matte finish then it may be able to do just that. But I dont want it to craze due to minor surface pitting and need an invisible joint. Will the #40 produce that if the surface isnt perfectly smooth? Thinking crazing may be more of a concern with solvent rather than #40. If I scrape it until its smooth it may not bite into the material as well though... confused.

Definately different, carbon fiber and aluminum are the primary materials for flight controls. When I got started I used to repair and install aircraft canopies and viewing ports on submersible vessels. Had to use optical micrometers to determine the depth of the scratches and use micro mesh kits to repair them. Another reason Im fond of acrylic over glass.

We used some stuff called PS30 which is very similar to WO40 back then. For this job, I'll be using #42 but will probably squirt it into syrenges to reduce and bubbles and apply it that way.

 

[Aquaticfan]

Gotcha, I'll probably cure it at room temp then. Thanks for the info again.

The surface is matte and feels pretty smooth to the touch despite the amplification. To scrape or not to scrape?

My real concern was getting the cement to bite into the base material if scraped smooth to remove machining marks. If I leave a matte finish then it may be able to do just that. But I dont want it to craze due to minor surface pitting and need an invisible joint. Will the #40 produce that if the surface isnt perfectly smooth? Thinking crazing may be more of a concern with solvent rather than #40. If I scrape it until its smooth it may not bite into the material as well though... confused.

Definately different, carbon fiber and aluminum are the primary materials for flight controls. When I got started I used to repair and install aircraft canopies and viewing ports on submersible vessels. Had to use optical micrometers to determine the depth of the scratches and use micro mesh kits to repair them. Another reason Im fond of acrylic over glass.

We used some stuff called PS30 which is very similar to WO40 back then. For this job, I'll be using #42 but will probably squirt it into syrenges to reduce and bubbles and apply it that way.

These are the cut ends of your material right? Looks good. Does it look or feel like there are and pits, slivers, cutmarks, Hash marks from cutting or any other imperfections in the edge that feel like it would leave bubbles when seaming them together? if so then some surface prep is probably recommended.

Also, are you using Just the #40 to do this or are you seaming the tank with #4 first to create the joint and then using #40 to make internal fillets in the corners and seams?

I say DO NOT scrape. The ends look pretty good to me. They should have quality strength and clarity. But some of that will also depend on you and your seaming abilities as well as method to do the seams.