Washing Your Bio
- Thread starter benzjamin13
- Start date
I also think it's important to add that the BB we have in our systems are extremely slow at multiplying. Ridiculously slow in fact. So when we say it's not massively important if we lose a few BB because they'll come back in no time at all, that is not quite true.
I read a ridiculous example of how slow they are. Somebody will correct me on this i'm sure but in the time it takes the cells of our BB to double, an ecoli cell has multiplied trillions of times, the figures really are that mind blowing.
And our BB will still multiply slowly even in perfect growing conditions. Take into consideration that we don't all harbour perfect conditions for whatever reason, and then BB growth is hampered even more.
So, looking after our BB, especially in high bio load systems, then becomes extremely important.
I read a ridiculous example of how slow they are. Somebody will correct me on this i'm sure but in the time it takes the cells of our BB to double, an ecoli cell has multiplied trillions of times, the figures really are that mind blowing.
And our BB will still multiply slowly even in perfect growing conditions. Take into consideration that we don't all harbour perfect conditions for whatever reason, and then BB growth is hampered even more.
So, looking after our BB, especially in high bio load systems, then becomes extremely important.
From post # 90.
http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html
"Nitrifying bacteria reproduce by binary division. Under optimal conditions, Nitrosomonas may double every 7 hours and Nitrobacter every 13 hours. More realistically, they will double every 15-20 hours. This is an extremely long time considering that heterotrophic bacteria can double in as short a time as 20 minutes. In the time that it takes a single Nitrosomonas cell to double in population, a single E. Coli bacterium would have produced a population exceeding 35 trillion cells."
http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html
"Nitrifying bacteria reproduce by binary division. Under optimal conditions, Nitrosomonas may double every 7 hours and Nitrobacter every 13 hours. More realistically, they will double every 15-20 hours. This is an extremely long time considering that heterotrophic bacteria can double in as short a time as 20 minutes. In the time that it takes a single Nitrosomonas cell to double in population, a single E. Coli bacterium would have produced a population exceeding 35 trillion cells."
The reproduction of nitrifying bacteria may be slow, but I have not had any issues with my procedures and safeguards.
This is not a practice I started yesterday.
This is not a practice I started yesterday.
I get the feeling some folks are getting defensive over this topic, when there's really no reason to. As already stated, there is no one size fits all, and clearly some hobbyists have figured out what works for them over the years.
The reason that I wave a warning flag is for those who have no idea what they are doing, either through inexperience, or just a fundamental lack of understanding the subject. There is nothing wrong with being careful, and taking precautions when needed.
Also, as I have already mentioned, disinfectant values can change over the years. For many years our little city ran on a lower residual of chlorine only, then one day they completed a major upgrade to their facility and switched to chloramine. With high pH values here that became important, as ammonia toxicity became a very real concern. Especially for those of us that perform very large water changes.
When chloramine tap water is treated with products such as Prime, Safe, the chlorine/ammonia bond is broken, resulting in a certain amount of free ammonia (NH3) that needs to be bound or reduced into a safe nontoxic form. The toxicity of free ammonia is highly dependent on both temperature, and pH, so this can vary GREATLY from one hobbyists tank to another.
A good read on the toxicity of ammonia and fish can be found in the following article posted on the krib.
http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/ammonia-toxicity.html
Experiments have shown that the lethal concentration for a variety of fish species ranges from 0.2 to 2.0 ppm.
Experiments have also shown that exposure to un-ionized ammonia concentrations as low as 0.002 ppm for six weeks causes hyperplasia of gill lining in salmon fingerlings and may lead to bacterial gill disease. At higher levels (>0.1 ppm NH3) even relatively short exposures can lead to skin, eye, and gill damage in some species.
Obviously free ammonia (NH3 ) is toxic to fish. How long that toxin will remain in one’s tank, and how toxic it will be, will be dependent on a number of factors. Temperature of water, pH value of water, planted tank vs non-planted, size of biological filtration, whether the biological filters are well established, or not, size/volume of water change, species and age of fish, etc.
IMO NH3 is very much along the same line as second hand smoke, something that my generation ignored for several decades.
The reason that I wave a warning flag is for those who have no idea what they are doing, either through inexperience, or just a fundamental lack of understanding the subject. There is nothing wrong with being careful, and taking precautions when needed.
Also, as I have already mentioned, disinfectant values can change over the years. For many years our little city ran on a lower residual of chlorine only, then one day they completed a major upgrade to their facility and switched to chloramine. With high pH values here that became important, as ammonia toxicity became a very real concern. Especially for those of us that perform very large water changes.
When chloramine tap water is treated with products such as Prime, Safe, the chlorine/ammonia bond is broken, resulting in a certain amount of free ammonia (NH3) that needs to be bound or reduced into a safe nontoxic form. The toxicity of free ammonia is highly dependent on both temperature, and pH, so this can vary GREATLY from one hobbyists tank to another.
A good read on the toxicity of ammonia and fish can be found in the following article posted on the krib.
http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/ammonia-toxicity.html
Experiments have shown that the lethal concentration for a variety of fish species ranges from 0.2 to 2.0 ppm.
Experiments have also shown that exposure to un-ionized ammonia concentrations as low as 0.002 ppm for six weeks causes hyperplasia of gill lining in salmon fingerlings and may lead to bacterial gill disease. At higher levels (>0.1 ppm NH3) even relatively short exposures can lead to skin, eye, and gill damage in some species.
Obviously free ammonia (NH3 ) is toxic to fish. How long that toxin will remain in one’s tank, and how toxic it will be, will be dependent on a number of factors. Temperature of water, pH value of water, planted tank vs non-planted, size of biological filtration, whether the biological filters are well established, or not, size/volume of water change, species and age of fish, etc.
IMO NH3 is very much along the same line as second hand smoke, something that my generation ignored for several decades.
This whole exercise has become frustrating.
No matter how much I honor what I have learned from others, qualify my statements by expressing I know that results are variable, or explain that I know my own practices may not be replicable, I am deemed "defensive".
Im exhausted.
No matter how much I honor what I have learned from others, qualify my statements by expressing I know that results are variable, or explain that I know my own practices may not be replicable, I am deemed "defensive".
Im exhausted.
I'm quite enjoying this thread...hopefully, people are learning a lot from it.
RD.
and
S
skjl47
there are differences of opinions and possibly some miscommunication since we're just looking at text, but I do applaud you both. While science is fact and that cannot be change, it seems the facts can be utilized differently depending on where we're located. Does that seem plausible?
And
Lilyann
and
S
skjl47
made me realize that it may also depends on how we clean and how we do maintenance. If someone were to wash their bio with tap and do a massive water change, that can potentially be a deadly combination depending on their water treatment.
Personally, I run multiple filters on 3 out of 5 tanks. I clean one filter at a time with a 50% water change, so there is always a filter running with the old tank water. There has been times that I've cleaned both filters with a 50%-75% water change, but that was pre-MFK (I even used to do a 100% full cleaning on my 10g in the beginning of the hobby). And did I lose fish, it's been awhile, so I can't say "Yes" or "No," but I do remember that it was on my 75g and the fish I kept, I remember they lived during those times, but most died during a move.
But as mentioned in the beginning along with others, RESULTS MAY VARY.
RD.
and
S
skjl47
there are differences of opinions and possibly some miscommunication since we're just looking at text, but I do applaud you both. While science is fact and that cannot be change, it seems the facts can be utilized differently depending on where we're located. Does that seem plausible?And
Lilyann
and
S
skjl47
made me realize that it may also depends on how we clean and how we do maintenance. If someone were to wash their bio with tap and do a massive water change, that can potentially be a deadly combination depending on their water treatment. Personally, I run multiple filters on 3 out of 5 tanks. I clean one filter at a time with a 50% water change, so there is always a filter running with the old tank water. There has been times that I've cleaned both filters with a 50%-75% water change, but that was pre-MFK (I even used to do a 100% full cleaning on my 10g in the beginning of the hobby). And did I lose fish, it's been awhile, so I can't say "Yes" or "No," but I do remember that it was on my 75g and the fish I kept, I remember they lived during those times, but most died during a move.
But as mentioned in the beginning along with others, RESULTS MAY VARY.
No one was challenging the information that you supplied, Amy. In fact, I "liked" it. 
And in case anyone missed it during my back and forth with Jeff, I have been fighting a very nasty flu bug for several days, so everything is a bit hazy from where I am sitting. Jeff seemed to get quite defensive about his hose, and how he cleans his media, etc. I just didn't want you to feel that anyone was challenging your method. When I read "This is not a practice I started yesterday", I got that feeling. My bad.
And in case anyone missed it during my back and forth with Jeff, I have been fighting a very nasty flu bug for several days, so everything is a bit hazy from where I am sitting. Jeff seemed to get quite defensive about his hose, and how he cleans his media, etc. I just didn't want you to feel that anyone was challenging your method. When I read "This is not a practice I started yesterday", I got that feeling. My bad.
RD go to bed and get some rest, soup, lots of liquids.No one was challenging the information that you supplied, Amy. In fact, I "liked" it.
Hoping, for you, a quick and speedy recovery.
Your brain is quick as always, but you need to rest.
Hello; I understand how you feel. Seems to be a "take no prisoners" attitude. Some subtle digs thrown in. I try to not reply in kind myself but catch myself slipping. Will not do the thread any good.
