Whats the big deal about soft water cichlids in hard water. Rant

[RD.]

Maybe your local breeder didn't tell the truth so he can sell more fish.

Sorry if my comment wasn't more clear, I never said that he bred them in tap water pf pH 8.0. I said that he raised them in tap water with a pH of 8.0. BIG difference. He had a massive holding tank where he pre-mixed RO when he put breeding pairs together. Once the fry were large enough they went in to tap water (pH 8.0) grow out tanks.

 

[duanes]

I believe it is the combination of "out of the norm evolutionary factors, with captive induced mistakes" that put many cichlids (and other fish) over the edge health wise.
Although the title suggest "hard water"" being the main issue, I doubt in most cases, it is always the only bugaboo.
But it, in combination with other factors such as excessive nitrate from too few water changes, gunked up filters, and then as per aquarium norm putting fish such as oscars, in much too cramped quarters, with inappropriate tank mates, together make territorial dispute, and the stress induced diseases that ensue almost "par for the course".

 

[tiger15]

So I don't buy the "sterile" environment thing at all......Obviously, wild caught fish are fish adapted already to a certain environment but juvenile fish can still adapt, and their offspring even more so.

Yes, some species need certain conditions to breed, some are yet to be figured out how to breed but to keep healthy fish one should concentrate on totally different things than what the pH is. Plus pH is such a limited measure I don't know why it keeps going around as a rule of anything. Two aquariums with the same pH can have totally different conditions.

All experts told me the same thing, including Dr. Paul Louselle in my fish club. Black water is not just very acidic, but it contains other stuff that sterilize many micros.

No one says that you have to replicate nature precisely to keep and breed fish. Few people keep and breed Tanganyikans in pH 8.6-9.2 water to replicate nature, just above 7 would be fine. Similarly, few people keep and breed discus in pH 4.5-6.0 water, just around 7 would be fine. Moreover, pH is just a proxy indicator of soft and hard water as more important measures are kH, gH and tds. I keep cherry shrimp and tds, a measure of osmotic pressure, is more important than pH, and I would assume the same to fish eggs and hatchlings.

Domesticated fish can adapt to broader water parameters, and I believe it is feasible to selectively breed more hardy discus. But discus breeders are more interested in developing fancy strain than hardy strain.

 

[RD.]

One is water change schedule, and because it may be the same now, as it was 3 years ago, that cute little 3” oscar is quadruple that size, and putting out quadruple the waste, but those 50% water changes might be still only once per week.

Results the fish is swimming in fish pee, and fish poop soup, and high nitrates (no matter how great the filtration).

When most people get their tap water, it is 99.999% pathogen free, and close to nitrate free.

As soon as it is dechlorinated, it becomes a great home for nasty bacteria, and the more your oscar pees and poops in the water, the better place it is, for those bacteria to grow, so even with a 50% water change there are 6 days for bacteria to double, triple or more. Many pathogens reproduce at alarming rates.

I've always believed that this is one of the key stressors in Oscar tanks, and it is why many people still feel that HITH can be cured with nothing more than water changes. Sometimes, yes, other times not so much.

While not all black water species are susceptible to HITH, or even all species of fish, among some of the cichlid species HITH is definitely an issue. Oscars being an extremely popular species, along with probably one of the most abused cichlids kept in captivity, it seems we see or hear a lot more about HITH in Oscars, than other cichlids. Like Duane I have avoided certain species over the years because I have seen first hand how sensitive they can be when kept in my local water. I don't need to be a chemist, or expert on anything, they eyes don't lie. Those fish require near pristine conditions to thrive. Clean water, clean filter media, and an overall low stress environment. Those species tend to develop chronic HITH if anything is off, and with some individuals it doesn't take much. I made a post on this subject a few yrs back and it was later made into a sticky. Part of that sticky …..

HITH - Revisited

Over the years numerous things have been blamed as the cause of Hole in the Head disease in fish. While this is still a confusing subject among hobbyists one thing has become clear, the pathogen responsible for the ulcerated pits in the head and body of ornamental freshwater fish with this...

www.monsterfishkeepers.com

Over the years numerous things have been blamed as the cause of Hole in the Head disease in fish. While this is still a confusing subject among hobbyists one thing has become clear, the pathogen responsible for the ulcerated pits in the head and body of ornamental freshwater fish with this condition, is Spironucleus spp., in ornamental warm water fish, the culprit is typically Spironucleus vortens.


Water quality can often be a stress trigger among many species of fish, with excessive stress creating a lowered immune response which in turn opens the door for protozoa to proliferate to excessive numbers. No matter the stress trigger in each individual case, it is always some form of stress that triggers a case of HITH. Poor water quality, poor diet, stress from aggressive tank mates, overcrowding, etc, can all lead to an outbreak of S. vortens flagellates. With any type of illness, be it bacterial, viral, or parasitic, pristine water quality will help ensure a heightened immune response by the fish.

 

[RD.]

All experts told me the same thing, including Dr. Paul Louselle in my fish club. Black water is not just very acidic, but it contains other stuff that sterilize many micros.

From that same sticky posted above......

There is much more than just pH involved, and even tannins, various other natural turpines and chemicals found in indigenous plant matter may not only keep the pH buffered quite low, but in some instances (such as Terminalia catappa aka Almond leaves) some of these various indigenous plant matter are also known to produce antimicrobial activity that suppresses both gram positive & gram negative bacteria. Take those species out of that "protective" environment, and introduce them to parameters outside their ideal range, and a fish that comes under stress (of any form) is going to be open for invasion from any number of pathogens that it would not normally encounter in the wild.

 

[tiger15]

I believe it is the combination of "out of the norm evolutionary factors, with captive induced mistakes" that put many cichlids (and other fish) over the edge health wise.
Although the title suggest "hard water"" being the main issue, I doubt in most cases, it is always the only bugaboo.
But it, in combination with other factors such as excessive nitrate from too few water changes, gunked up filters, and then as per aquarium norm putting fish such as oscars, in much too cramped quarters, with inappropriate tank mates, together make territorial dispute, and the stress induced diseases that ensue almost "par for the course".

What you said is generally right. It’s not just soft or hard water that caused unhealthy Oscar, but degradation of water quality and cramped space that stress out fast growing fish. Oscar is very adaptable fish, and has naturalized in alkaline lakes in Florida. But high nitrate itself isn’t necessary the cause, but a proxy indicator of water quality degradation of other unknown and untested toxins. I dose nitrate in my planted cichlid tanks, and nitrate is non toxic to fish up to 100 ppm. It is actually more toxic to human as EPA stardard is 10 ppm in drinking water to prevent blue baby syndrome.

 

[duanes]

Keeping Up with Nitrate - Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazinewww.tfhmagazine.com › Details › Articles
Aquarium Nitrates and how to get rid of them! - FishLabhttps://fishlab.com/nitrate/

 

[RD.]

But high nitrate itself isn’t necessary the cause, but a proxy indicator of water quality degradation of other unknown and untested toxins.

This. ^

IMO nitrate is simply an easy way to measure/eyeball the potential of DOC's, bacteria, and other toxins that are also accumulating between water changes.

 

[PYRU]

Discus, rams, similar are on the RO level Unless you're doing huge wc's daily which is just insane to me. Keeping those in you're average tap is like trying to do a reef with tap.

Most people don't test their water so they have no clue what they're dealing with and just throw some imaginary percentage out there. Water evaporates you top it off with more elements do a minimal wc rest repeat then wonder what's wrong.

 

[RD.]

Discus, rams, similar are on the RO level Unless you're doing huge wc's daily which is just insane to me. Keeping those in you're average tap is like trying to do a reef with tap.

Most people don't test their water so they have no clue what they're dealing with and just throw some imaginary percentage out there. Water evaporates you top it off with more elements do a minimal wc rest repeat then wonder what's wrong.

Did you even bother to read the previous posts regarding discus?

In general, and unless one is attempting to breed them, discus do NOT require RO, nor does one need to perform huge daily wc's to keep them healthy. That is nothing more than a myth, repeated on the internet until some consider it as fact. The vast majority of discus do just fine in regular tap water. This was all covered in detail, with pics included.