It's not too bad, around $150 a month. The killer is our electric bill at $1200 a month.
Whats the deal with Xtreme fish food ??
- Thread starter Tropical Joe
- Start date
Even though I do not own any monster fish (sorry for the necropost!) had to register in order to speak, because this is one of the few places where I've seen Xtreme aquatic foods being discussed with a critical mindset, and, even though I only have tiny fish compared to you guys, I also wanna give them the best dry food I can find.
I always seem to see only praise about this food, and myself been using the krill flakes for some months, with great results. Is it really that inferior to NLS? I've had a person tell me a prominent judge was impressed by his cichlids in a contest show, particularly because his fish (fed with xtreme) were the biggest and most colorful of the show (for their age), even more than other ones fed with NLS.
I'm not defending Xtreme or NLS, I've fed both with great results (I first fed NLS and my neon tetras went from half an inch babies straight from petsmart to massive 1"+, colorful little guys, and none died in over 7 months of feeding it), I just wanna know if one is decisively superior to another. Always keep reading conflicting anecdotes, and I can never find which one is decisively superior. I started feeding Xtreme krill flakes and every fish seem to like it, and haven't had any problems, stress, decoloration, nothing.
At the end of the day, most food seem to be of quality these days, right? Would you go as far as to tell someone to discard their food and get NLS?
So many info and drama everywhere, as well as charismatic salesmen, that one gets a bit overwhelmed and cannot find a conclusive verdict to fish food. Some say NLS is the best of the best, others say Dennerle is the best, others Northfin. Dunno what to feed! Maybe I'm thinking on it too much?
I hope I am not unwelcome here for having only my tiny little amazon fish lol. Good day!
Firstly, welcome to the forum
HenryC
. It dosen't matter what size tanks or fish you have, there's something for everyone here, whatever their taste.And thank you for bumping this thread. I missed it first time round. It's one of the best threads i've read in my time on here.
RD.
on top form as usual.And once again
to the forum.
Yes! I particularly got drawn to RD.'s side of the story. I like Cory but can't help but feel the salesman in him comes to the surface every now and then. He claims complete transparency, but I just can't put aside that even though he's a seasoned fishkeeper, he's also a salesman. Not saying he might be lying about Xtreme being top quality, it's just... hmmm... let's see the point of view of people who do not sell/aren't sponsored by Xtreme. The same goes for NLS of course, and any food. It's good and important to hear both sides of the story.Firstly, welcome to the forum
And thank you for bumping this thread. I missed it first time round. It's one of the best threads i've read in my time on here.
And once again
I guess there's simply not an independent, compeltely unbiased scientific report of individual ingredients of fish, at least not all of them, and we have mostly anecdotal evidence. Put on top that every single species requeires different nutrition, and it looks like an impossible task to find the absolute perfectfood for every fish. After all, fishkeeping as we know it has been going on for a relative short time, right? Thanks for the welcome!
Welcome HenryC. The following is a re-post of mine from several years ago here on MFK.
To be honest, from a nutritional aspect the average hobbyist typically has no idea what the exact nutrient levels are of the various raw foods that they feed their fish, or how each species will assimilate those various nutrients. You can't simply feed a fish that in the wild is predominantly a frugivore, such as Heros efasciatus, slices of apples & oranges, and assume that this is in any way a more natural form of food for the fish, than a well-balanced pellet. In the wild a frugivore will seek out the fruits & seeds that contain the highest level of protein/fat, not the ones that mostly consist of starch. Add to that the nutrient requirements of most species change as they mature, so what might be ideal for a fry/juvenile, could be (and often is) completely different compared to a mature individual.
The reality is, for the vast majority of ornamental species of fish no one (including myself) has the slightest clue what the optimum dietary requirements are, as the vast majority of these fish have never been studied long term with regards to dietary requirements. Most haven't been studied on even a short term basis. You might be able to mimic a fishes natural feeding behavior by feeding live foods, but most hobbyists will never mimic the seasonal variations of a natural diet that take place in the wild. Raising your own live bearers, fresh water shrimp, crickets, and worms generally won't even come close to matching what a cichlid in the wild consumes on a regular basis. The nutrient profile of each foodstuff is dependent on what each of those foodstuffs in turn consumes, which in captivity is usually nothing remotely close to what those live fish, insects, crustaceans, nymphs & larvae would consume in the wild.
This is why if one refers to the nutrient profile of say an earthworm, one can only ball park that data as the protein/fat/mineral content will be entirely based on the environment of where that worm originated, as in what that worm consumes on a regular basis.
What works best for each species is a bit of a guessing game, which is often only determined from long term experience with that species.
To be honest, from a nutritional aspect the average hobbyist typically has no idea what the exact nutrient levels are of the various raw foods that they feed their fish, or how each species will assimilate those various nutrients. You can't simply feed a fish that in the wild is predominantly a frugivore, such as Heros efasciatus, slices of apples & oranges, and assume that this is in any way a more natural form of food for the fish, than a well-balanced pellet. In the wild a frugivore will seek out the fruits & seeds that contain the highest level of protein/fat, not the ones that mostly consist of starch. Add to that the nutrient requirements of most species change as they mature, so what might be ideal for a fry/juvenile, could be (and often is) completely different compared to a mature individual.
The reality is, for the vast majority of ornamental species of fish no one (including myself) has the slightest clue what the optimum dietary requirements are, as the vast majority of these fish have never been studied long term with regards to dietary requirements. Most haven't been studied on even a short term basis. You might be able to mimic a fishes natural feeding behavior by feeding live foods, but most hobbyists will never mimic the seasonal variations of a natural diet that take place in the wild. Raising your own live bearers, fresh water shrimp, crickets, and worms generally won't even come close to matching what a cichlid in the wild consumes on a regular basis. The nutrient profile of each foodstuff is dependent on what each of those foodstuffs in turn consumes, which in captivity is usually nothing remotely close to what those live fish, insects, crustaceans, nymphs & larvae would consume in the wild.
This is why if one refers to the nutrient profile of say an earthworm, one can only ball park that data as the protein/fat/mineral content will be entirely based on the environment of where that worm originated, as in what that worm consumes on a regular basis.
What works best for each species is a bit of a guessing game, which is often only determined from long term experience with that species.
Having said that, it doesn't take several decades worth of research to understand that the protein/amino acids, as well as the lipids/fatty acids, found in fish, krill, squid, shrimp, and other seafood, when feeding a finfish, are superior to the protein & fat derived from soybean meal, pea meal, DDGS, corn, etc.
There are scores of peer reviewed unbiased scientific papers/studies/reports that support that conclusion. The alternatives to fish protein & fat, were only "discovered", when seeking lower cost alternatives. Not healthier, or better ingredients, but cheaper ingredients, to save production costs. The anecdotal evidence that you mention is only due from the sheer resilience of most fish, that clearly can eat loads of low cost fillers and still seem to survive. There is now approx. 100 years of feed trials to prove that. Ditto to dogs, cats, etc. Not exactly something that I think we should all stand and cheer about.
This is typically where someone will post "my fish eat this (lower quality food with soybean etc) and inform everyone how healthy & colorful they are. Again, all that proves is the sheer resilience of most species of fish.
An Amphilophus living in a lake full of raw sewage in Nicaragua typically looks great too, until it dies a premature death from the toxic build up. I recall the fish in the Detroit River circa 1970 looking "great" too.
Things have improved drastically since I started out years ago, but there is still a lot of crap on the market, loaded with low cost terrrestrial based, cereal based fillers.
I like to think that I have played a small role in some of these improvements. Prior to joining this site I was a member, then later a mod, on a well known cichlid site. I had no affiliation with anyone but myself starting out. I beat up a lot of manufacturers back in the day, it didn't go unnoticed. I was told by one of the owners of the site that I was a mod on that other food manufacturers (other meaning not the one that I supported) would not sponsor the forum unless I went bye bye, or shut up. I was later threatened with a law suit by Dennis Crews, the owner of Omega, over something that I didn't even post. lol
I was emailed directly from the president of Hikari USA, because I was corresponding with their head researcher in Japan, as though I was involved in corporate espionage. lol Some fun/stupid reading for anyone interested. https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/massivore-question.309774/
Long story short, I made some waves, large enough waves that manufacturers began to notice that I called crap out for what it was, including when Northfin appeared to be using excessive amounts of ethoxyquin in some of their food, while stating on their website that their food was ethoxyquin free. Darius knows me as well.
At the end of all of that, NF did in fact update their website, which included changing their preservative-free claim. I also updated that thread to note that.
I consider that a victory. Even the better quality food manufacturers need to have checks & balances in place.
Here's a couple of prime examples.
Wardley Algae Disc:
Ingredients: Wheat Flour, Wheat Middlings, Fish Meal, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Wheat Gluten Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Soy Protein Isolate, Ground Dried Spirulina, Fish Oil, Soybean Oil, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Source of Vitamin C), Calcium Propionate (a preservative), Rice Hulls, Choline Chloride, Betaine, Ethoxyquin (a preservative), Vitamin E Supplement, Calcium Carbonate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Source of Vitamin K activity), Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Niacin Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Mineral Oil, Thiamine Mononitrate, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Proteinate, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Vitamin A Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium Iodate.
Hikari Algae Wafer
INGREDIENTS
Fish meal, wheat flour, wheat germ meal, cassava starch, dried bakery product, dried seaweed meal, alfalfa nutrient concentrate dehydrated, dehydrated alfalfa meal, brewers dried yeast, soybean meal, fish oil, krill meal, spirulina, garlic, DL-methionine, chlorella, astaxanthin, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized vitamin C), inositol, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, vitamin A supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, niacin, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, disodium phosphate, ferrous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, calcium iodate.
Or this:
Guess which food I would recommend that someone feed their herbivorous fish?
There are scores of peer reviewed unbiased scientific papers/studies/reports that support that conclusion. The alternatives to fish protein & fat, were only "discovered", when seeking lower cost alternatives. Not healthier, or better ingredients, but cheaper ingredients, to save production costs. The anecdotal evidence that you mention is only due from the sheer resilience of most fish, that clearly can eat loads of low cost fillers and still seem to survive. There is now approx. 100 years of feed trials to prove that. Ditto to dogs, cats, etc. Not exactly something that I think we should all stand and cheer about.
This is typically where someone will post "my fish eat this (lower quality food with soybean etc) and inform everyone how healthy & colorful they are. Again, all that proves is the sheer resilience of most species of fish.
An Amphilophus living in a lake full of raw sewage in Nicaragua typically looks great too, until it dies a premature death from the toxic build up. I recall the fish in the Detroit River circa 1970 looking "great" too.
Wrong.
Things have improved drastically since I started out years ago, but there is still a lot of crap on the market, loaded with low cost terrrestrial based, cereal based fillers.
I like to think that I have played a small role in some of these improvements. Prior to joining this site I was a member, then later a mod, on a well known cichlid site. I had no affiliation with anyone but myself starting out. I beat up a lot of manufacturers back in the day, it didn't go unnoticed. I was told by one of the owners of the site that I was a mod on that other food manufacturers (other meaning not the one that I supported) would not sponsor the forum unless I went bye bye, or shut up. I was later threatened with a law suit by Dennis Crews, the owner of Omega, over something that I didn't even post. lol
I was emailed directly from the president of Hikari USA, because I was corresponding with their head researcher in Japan, as though I was involved in corporate espionage. lol Some fun/stupid reading for anyone interested. https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/massivore-question.309774/
Long story short, I made some waves, large enough waves that manufacturers began to notice that I called crap out for what it was, including when Northfin appeared to be using excessive amounts of ethoxyquin in some of their food, while stating on their website that their food was ethoxyquin free. Darius knows me as well.
At the end of all of that, NF did in fact update their website, which included changing their preservative-free claim. I also updated that thread to note that.
I consider that a victory. Even the better quality food manufacturers need to have checks & balances in place.
That depends on the food, but yes, absolutely.
Here's a couple of prime examples.
Wardley Algae Disc:
Ingredients: Wheat Flour, Wheat Middlings, Fish Meal, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Wheat Gluten Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Soy Protein Isolate, Ground Dried Spirulina, Fish Oil, Soybean Oil, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Source of Vitamin C), Calcium Propionate (a preservative), Rice Hulls, Choline Chloride, Betaine, Ethoxyquin (a preservative), Vitamin E Supplement, Calcium Carbonate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Source of Vitamin K activity), Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Niacin Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Mineral Oil, Thiamine Mononitrate, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Proteinate, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Vitamin A Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium Iodate.
Hikari Algae Wafer
INGREDIENTS
Fish meal, wheat flour, wheat germ meal, cassava starch, dried bakery product, dried seaweed meal, alfalfa nutrient concentrate dehydrated, dehydrated alfalfa meal, brewers dried yeast, soybean meal, fish oil, krill meal, spirulina, garlic, DL-methionine, chlorella, astaxanthin, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized vitamin C), inositol, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, vitamin A supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, niacin, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, disodium phosphate, ferrous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, calcium iodate.
Or this:
Guess which food I would recommend that someone feed their herbivorous fish?
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In my fish room it's like Frank's Hot Sauce, I feed that s%i! to everything! lol
Years ago back during the EQ & Northfin discussion I posted the following, something that I still believe today.
Social media has become a powerful sales tool for most manufacturers, and those same folks following these promoters, can just as easily turn on those people, and the products that they promote. Today, bad news travels faster than it ever has in our past.
What people like Matt don't realize, is these types of open discussions, on public forums, can and often do create changes within the industry. No company wants to be caught with their pants down, and/or be targeted by consumers as being dishonest, or selling faulty goods. Threads like this don't just vaporize with time, google can keep them alive for lurkers for years.
I see a happy ending here, others may not have the same vision.
Social media has become a powerful sales tool for most manufacturers, and those same folks following these promoters, can just as easily turn on those people, and the products that they promote. Today, bad news travels faster than it ever has in our past.
What people like Matt don't realize, is these types of open discussions, on public forums, can and often do create changes within the industry. No company wants to be caught with their pants down, and/or be targeted by consumers as being dishonest, or selling faulty goods. Threads like this don't just vaporize with time, google can keep them alive for lurkers for years.
I see a happy ending here, others may not have the same vision.
