Please help identify

[Hybridfish7]

Will do just to be sure. So I am gathering that you still believe that Hoga is a more accurate ID?

No. I merely showed hoga's diagnostics for reference. Yours has too few dorsal spines and too many anal spines to be hoga based on hoga's original description. Especially if yours do in fact have 18 dorsal spines. In doing my own counts of citrinellum/hybrid citrinellum I found that their counts are also 16-17 for dorsal spines.

For one, if it does have 18, this rules out hoga. If it has 16 like I counted, it could be anything. If it is in fact from apoyo like you say, then the closest thing it resembles is flaveolus. But again without genetics at this point it could still be up in the air.

Here are astorquii collected for a study published in 2009 to compare. The paper notes the solid black coloration during spawning (however this can be likely sparked by competition over food), and the large spot on the fourth bar (with no stripes) outside of breeding. Juveniles had a continuous horizontal stripe running through the body connecting the "bars".

 

[Kevin@TUIC]

I’m sure this is true but several times 10+ years ago there was indeed imports to some farms. This isn’t an argument I’m just stating facts that that is were this individual originates from. And he was produced in captivity from his parents, so on and so forth. I’m not just some hobbyist that picked up a fish and just trying to figure out what it is. I know where these fish come from. Just wasn’t sure what species.

ALL as in 100% of all commercially collected wild Nicaraguan cichlids were exclusively imported by TUIC. TUIC sponsored the 1 and only permit in the country(Nicaragua) and held exclusive global distribution rights. Every Nicaraguan freshwater fish commercially collected, exported, imported and then shipped around the globe went through the hands of TUIC. Even many of the privately collected fish were imported & cleared under TUIC, shipped to our facility, and then sent to those that collected. Most of the well known breeders in the country obtained their stock from .. well, you get the point. A. Astorquii has never been in the hobby. Heck, while its on my mind only 1 wild A. chancho has ever been imported 1 time to the US. EVER. and that was a single fish! All other chancho are descendants of Willams fish from literally several decades ago. Laguna de Apoyo was closed to nearly all activity in 1991 and then in 2010 officially was closed to pretty much everything. No motorized vehicles(including boats), no construction or housing, etc. are even allowed in the surrounding forrest to get to the lake. It is more or less limited to just hiking in for swimming, kayaking, & scuba diving(from man powered boats). Birdwatching is big thing there. Absolutely no fish are being collected from that lake for the hobby other than from the scientific center located on the lake where they are studied and often released or 'pickled' for studies. Nothing has been collected from that lake in years and when it was, it was a very, very limited qty of fish. A decade or more probably at this point.
The OP fish is likely Amphilophus citrinellus(barred citrinellus are the predominate fish in the wild btw), hogaboomorum, chancho, or maybe but very unlikely flaveolus. Considering it came from a farm in Africa its likely to be a mix of any of them. Also likely originating from fish sent to someone in Africa by TUIC or COTA(the only two that exported out of the US).

 

[Kevin@TUIC]

I will add, Without knowing who collected it, who sent it to Africa, how it got back to the US, it will be impossible without a genetic test. We can try to eliminate other species by counting rays or vertical bands. But, if its a mix of anything that rules that out..
Whomever the ichthyologist is, would be able to easily test. Several Universities in the US can do this and have access to database's. Ironically, whenever many scientists need archival photo documents of cichlids they reach out to me asking for them to compare..

 

[newworld]

ALL as in 100% of all commercially collected wild Nicaraguan cichlids were exclusively imported by TUIC. TUIC sponsored the 1 and only permit in the country(Nicaragua) and held exclusive global distribution rights. Every Nicaraguan freshwater fish commercially collected, exported, imported and then shipped around the globe went through the hands of TUIC. Even many of the privately collected fish were imported & cleared under TUIC, shipped to our facility, and then sent to those that collected. Most of the well known breeders in the country obtained their stock from .. well, you get the point. A. Astorquii has never been in the hobby. Heck, while its on my mind only 1 wild A. chancho has ever been imported 1 time to the US. EVER. and that was a single fish! All other chancho are descendants of Willams fish from literally several decades ago. Laguna de Apoyo was closed to nearly all activity in 1991 and then in 2010 officially was closed to pretty much everything. No motorized vehicles(including boats), no construction or housing, etc. are even allowed in the surrounding forrest to get to the lake. It is more or less limited to just hiking in for swimming, kayaking, & scuba diving(from man powered boats). Birdwatching is big thing there. Absolutely no fish are being collected from that lake for the hobby other than from the scientific center located on the lake where they are studied and often released or 'pickled' for studies. Nothing has been collected from that lake in years and when it was, it was a very, very limited qty of fish. A decade or more probably at this point.
The OP fish is likely Amphilophus citrinellus(barred citrinellus are the predominate fish in the wild btw), hogaboomorum, chancho, or maybe but very unlikely flaveolus. Considering it came from a farm in Africa its likely to be a mix of any of them. Also likely originating from fish sent to someone in Africa by TUIC or COTA(the only two that exported out of the US).

Im in no way an authority on amphilophus or what that fish is, but there are private hobbyist that collect in those countries and bring fish back …for example a few years back i brought back the Coatepeque convict, a fish that wasn’t in the usa hobby i believe their are a few ppl on the east coast that still maintain this fish.. my point there are other collections other than commercial so you never know..

 

[LAQGUY]

ALL as in 100% of all commercially collected wild Nicaraguan cichlids were exclusively imported by TUIC. TUIC sponsored the 1 and only permit in the country(Nicaragua) and held exclusive global distribution rights. Every Nicaraguan freshwater fish commercially collected, exported, imported and then shipped around the globe went through the hands of TUIC. Even many of the privately collected fish were imported & cleared under TUIC, shipped to our facility, and then sent to those that collected. Most of the well known breeders in the country obtained their stock from .. well, you get the point. A. Astorquii has never been in the hobby. Heck, while its on my mind only 1 wild A. chancho has ever been imported 1 time to the US. EVER. and that was a single fish! All other chancho are descendants of Willams fish from literally several decades ago. Laguna de Apoyo was closed to nearly all activity in 1991 and then in 2010 officially was closed to pretty much everything. No motorized vehicles(including boats), no construction or housing, etc. are even allowed in the surrounding forrest to get to the lake. It is more or less limited to just hiking in for swimming, kayaking, & scuba diving(from man powered boats). Birdwatching is big thing there. Absolutely no fish are being collected from that lake for the hobby other than from the scientific center located on the lake where they are studied and often released or 'pickled' for studies. Nothing has been collected from that lake in years and when it was, it was a very, very limited qty of fish. A decade or more probably at this point.
The OP fish is likely Amphilophus citrinellus(barred citrinellus are the predominate fish in the wild btw), hogaboomorum, chancho, or maybe but very unlikely flaveolus. Considering it came from a farm in Africa its likely to be a mix of any of them. Also likely originating from fish sent to someone in Africa by TUIC or COTA(the only two that exported out of the US).

Wow this is incredible information. I’ll have to look deeper into the paper work and see if there is anything else. All it said was origin Apoyo, Nicaragua. So maybe not collected by one of the farms but rather purchased. And some additional information speaking with a second “ology expert” lol he suggested Hogo. Found more information and indeed we have had shipments containing fish that were caught in Honduras just a couple of years back and brought to a farm as Midas. They are then separated by color “variations” never mixed. When they were brought to my place of work they came in an African cichlid shipment. Not mixed in but in separate boxes alone side the African cichlid shipment. Happens like that from time to time with other fish. Last bit the dorsal spines where miscounted it is actually 17 not the initial 18. I’m hoping that he is pure in blood a little hopeful since I did see they were kept separately by “ variation”.

 

[LAQGUY]

I have plenty more at work I’m growing out but many that match my fish exactly. Would love to bring more home when my 250 is set up and hope to upgrade to a 300+

 

[LAQGUY]

Wow this is incredible information. I’ll have to look deeper into the paper work and see if there is anything else. All it said was origin Apoyo, Nicaragua. So maybe not collected by one of the farms but rather purchased. And some additional information speaking with a second “ology expert” lol he suggested Hogo. Found more information and indeed we have had shipments containing fish that were caught in Honduras just a couple of years back and brought to a farm as Midas. They are then separated by color “variations” never mixed. When they were brought to my place of work they came in an African cichlid shipment. Not mixed in but in separate boxes alone side the African cichlid shipment. Happens like that from time to time with other fish. Last bit the dorsal spines where miscounted it is actually 17 not the initial 18. I’m hoping that he is pure in blood a little hopeful since I did see they were kept separately by “ variation”.

And just to be clear they were not shipped from Africa. They were shipped with an African cichlid shipment from one of the farms.

 

[Kevin@TUIC]

Im in no way an authority on amphilophus or what that fish is, but there are private hobbyist that collect in those countries and bring fish back …for example a few years back i brought back the Coatepeque convict, a fish that wasn’t in the usa hobby i believe their are a few ppl on the east coast that still maintain this fish.. my point there are other collections other than commercial so you never know..

Hi Sam, I know it and I agree. Plenty of private collections happen.
But, we would have seen or heard about it at one point and then.. how did it get to a random farm in FL. To be in the hobby and Rapps, Sharifi, or myself not know or at least not have heard about it would be some top secret stuff considering we've as a whole distributed most of the worlds Amphilophus. Heck this week alone I shipped out over 300 labiatus juveniles.
Convicts (amatitlania & cryptoheros) are great! Some of my personal favorites.
I recall work from 2013 or 2014 that determined that A. coatepeque is a junior synonym of A. nigrofasciata and when they were examined with molecular and morphological characters. it was found that Mitochondrial DNA diagnostics failed to diagnose A. coatepeque any different than nigrofasciata. I believe this was also the case with siquia too but they have not yet officially changed the name back to nigrofasciata so siquia still sticks.. Either way I like em' all. In fact, Id love some from Cubayo! Lost mine years ago.

 

[newworld]

Hi Sam, I know it and I agree. Plenty of private collections happen.
But, we would have seen or heard about it at one point and then.. how did it get to a random farm in FL. To be in the hobby and Rapps, Sharifi, or myself not know or at least not have heard about it would be some top secret stuff considering we've as a whole distributed most of the worlds Amphilophus. Heck this week alone I shipped out over 300 labiatus juveniles.
Convicts (amatitlania & cryptoheros) are great! Some of my personal favorites.
I recall work from 2013 or 2014 that determined that A. coatepeque is a junior synonym of A. nigrofasciata and when they were examined with molecular and morphological characters. it was found that Mitochondrial DNA diagnostics failed to diagnose A. coatepeque any different than nigrofasciata. I believe this was also the case with siquia too but they have not yet officially changed the name back to nigrofasciata so siquia still sticks.. Either way I like em' all. In fact, Id love some from Cubayo! Lost mine years ago.

Hey, yea unfortunately coatepeque isnt a valid name but is a really attractive convict, at one time i had a bunch of strains i collected that i was maintaining from Nicaragua, El Salvador and Honduras. As for the Cubayo fish I have a friend in Chicago who still has that fish I’ll mention it to him that your interested…