The Ethics of Aquariums

[troublesum]

Do the fish know they are living in tiny glass boxes? maybe a wild caught 8 year old 24in Dovii may stop and think WTF is this glass box last week i was swimming in thousands of gallons of water. But what about the captive breed fish the F1s,F2s do you think they sit in our tanks and byatch about how small it is, do they think i cant wait to get out of here, (Like prisoners in prisons).
I under stand they are living things and do my best to keep my tank clean and fish healthy but if something happens i dont beat myself up and say i'm quitting the hobby its not fair to the fish i learn from my mistake and keep it moving

 

[skjl47]

Do the fish know they are living in tiny glass boxes? maybe a wild caught 8 year old 24in Dovii may stop and think WTF is this glass box last week i was swimming in thousands of gallons of water. But what about the captive breed fish the F1s,F2s do you think they sit in our tanks and byatch about how small it is, do they think i cant wait to get out of here, (Like prisoners in prisons).
I under stand they are living things and do my best to keep my tank clean and fish healthy but if something happens i dont beat myself up and say i'm quitting the hobby its not fair to the fish i learn from my mistake and keep it moving

Hello; I made a choice some years ago to keep only tank raised fish. A few reasons for this but the main one from learning what happens to wild caught populations.

Hello; I don't think fish have the brains to think about their living conditions, so these questions are for us. That said the fish can and do suffer in poorly kept tanks.

 

[AR1]

I am not a fan of long answers, so i will keep this as short as possible.

Fishkeeping is ethical as long as the adequate conditions required for the fish to thrive and live happily are provided. If this is met, then I consider the fish to be living in a far better state than in the wild, where they don't easily get food, struggle to survive predators,etc. However, it all depends on how the person thinks or views this topic.

 

[Cal Amari]

Some people think it's unethical to keep people living in tiny boxes all lined up in a row and we never should have left the grasslands and woods we came from. To each their own...

 

[mcarson75]

fully agree

 

[jjohnwm]

Surely it’s the same as the ethics of eating meat, we do it because we can.

This simple answer ^ is probably close to accurate, but I'd modify it a bit. We keep them, not so much because we can, but because we want to, i.e. we are motivated by pure selfishness.

The justification for anything, done by anyone, can be boiled down to that one simple constant: selfishness. Anything we do...we do for selfish reasons. People who steal do it for entirely obvious selfish reasons: because they want the loot, and having it makes them feel good. But people who live pious lives and give to charity and volunteer at soup kitchens and rescue sick fish and chain themselves to old growth trees and perform any number of other "selfless" acts...do all that stuff because it makes them feel good. They've been raised to believe that good is good and evil is evil, and by doing good they will earn some Brownie points with God and go to Heaven...in other words, they do it ultimately to benefit themselves; they're being selfish.

Mother Theresa was one of the most selfish people who ever lived. She decided, or rather was raised to believe, that she needed to help everybody because that was God's will and she was doing God's work. But she didn't do it merely because she thought God wanted her to; she ultimately did it because she would feel good about herself for getting in good with God. Selfish.

Born-again evangelists who climb over my gate and trudge up to my house to try and coerce or implore or threaten me to see things their way...are selfishly grasping for that rush of gratification they have been taught to feel when they save the soul of another heathen or sinner. When a few deep-throated threatening barks from Duke sends them scurrying back to their cars...well, that selfish self-serving reaction takes precedence over the other selfishness. People who log onto MFK and answer silly basic questions posed by silly newbie fishkeepers don't do so merely to be helpful; they do so because they have been taught that helping is a good deed, and doing "good" will make them feel better. All selfish.

As others have already said, this is a topic that's been done many times before, and though I'm sure everyone here could add some worthwhile insights I find that this is precisely the type of question to which AI can provide a really good response.

IMHO, that makes about as much sense as asking a nun for advice about the merits of various sex positions.

Surely it’s the same as the ethics of eating meat, we do it because we can.

Yep! We eat meat because we want to. Same with fishkeeping. Entirely selfish.

Everyone who wants to pile on and tell me how wrong I am, feel free to proceed. You'll feel good...you selfish bastidges...

 

[Kelly_Aquatics]

This simple answer ^ is probably close to accurate, but I'd modify it a bit. We keep them, not so much because we can, but because we want to, i.e. we are motivated by pure selfishness.

The justification for anything, done by anyone, can be boiled down to that one simple constant: selfishness. Anything we do...we do for selfish reasons. People who steal do it for entirely obvious selfish reasons: because they want the loot, and having it makes them feel good. But people who live pious lives and give to charity and volunteer at soup kitchens and rescue sick fish and chain themselves to old growth trees and perform any number of other "selfless" acts...do all that stuff because it makes them feel good. They've been raised to believe that good is good and evil is evil, and by doing good they will earn some Brownie points with God and go to Heaven...in other words, they do it ultimately to benefit themselves; they're being selfish.

Mother Theresa was one of the most selfish people who ever lived. She decided, or rather was raised to believe, that she needed to help everybody because that was God's will and she was doing God's work. But she didn't do it merely because she thought God wanted her to; she ultimately did it because she would feel good about herself for getting in good with God. Selfish.

Born-again evangelists who climb over my gate and trudge up to my house to try and coerce or implore or threaten me to see things their way...are selfishly grasping for that rush of gratification they have been taught to feel when they save the soul of another heathen or sinner. When a few deep-throated threatening barks from Duke sends them scurrying back to their cars...well, that selfish self-serving reaction takes precedence over the other selfishness. People who log onto MFK and answer silly basic questions posed by silly newbie fishkeepers don't do so merely to be helpful; they do so because they have been taught that helping is a good deed, and doing "good" will make them feel better. All selfish.




IMHO, that makes about as much sense as asking a nun for advice about the merits of various sex positions.




Yep! We eat meat because we want to. Same with fishkeeping. Entirely selfish.

Everyone who wants to pile on and tell me how wrong I am, feel free to proceed. You'll feel good...you selfish bastidges...

That is an interesting position and it does make sense, nothing is done selflessly. So I’ll ask you this, where is the line drawn that separates acceptable selfishness and unacceptable selfishness. Keeping fish is selfish and so is stealing, but one is acceptable and the other is not. It seems like a cut and dry answer but I’m not so sure that it is. These conversations and topics fascinate me. Regarding my original post have a hunch that there is no right answer.

 

[jjohnwm]

That is an interesting position and it does make sense, nothing is done selflessly. So I’ll ask you this, where is the line drawn that separates acceptable selfishness and unacceptable selfishness. Keeping fish is selfish and so is stealing, but one is acceptable and the other is not. It seems like a cut and dry answer but I’m not so sure that it is. These conversations and topics fascinate me. Regarding my original post have a hunch that there is no right answer.

The line is drawn...wherever the individual wants to draw it. And so, of course, there is indeed no single right answer. Most people would agree with you about those two particular examples...but there are those who feel that both are acceptable under at least some circumstances, while many more who feel that both are equally unacceptable.

I once worked closely with another electrician on a long-ago job, and our entire day was spent in futile but interesting discussions like this. The work always got done...and the debates were never resolved...but the days always passed quickly and pleasantly.

I selfishly enjoyed the debates.

 

[jason longboard]

Hello; To the OP, do a search of this site. The topic has been exhausted many times. Outside of commercial shops the keeping of pets is for our personal gratification. Doubtful if even 1% of home aquariums begin to approach natural wild conditions. Hundreds if not many thousands of gallons of water per fish in natural settings. As a Mod duanes posts often, natural waters have zero nitrates while we think staying at or below 20 ppm is good enough.

The pro home aquaria bits include our fish do not face predation nor hunger in out our glass boxes most of the time. Our fish do face too many bad fishkeepers. Have seen too many fish keepers with bad conditions so that I no longer encourage new fish Keepers to the hobby.

The worst conditions appear to be on the commercial side of the hobby. I do not know the extent of things which happen during collection, transport and all , but the parts i do know are not often good. Take the male betta trade as example. Ever consider how much culling of individual fish goes on. I have not seen it lately at the local Wal-Mart but not long ago there were cups of male bettas for sale at the service desk.

But the big issue is who gets to set the standards other have to follow. Will it be my take on what is ethical. I currently have a 55 gallon tank with four zebra danio fish + one rasbora and at that know they have too little water per fish. On the plus side the power can go out and the fish will be fine for weeks or months. Should it be someone who stocks densely and whose tanks will be in trouble in hours if the power goes out?


Hello; this showed up as I was typing. I started keeping fish around 1959 when i was maybe 12 years old. I saw some in a flower shop for sale and just wanted them. No ethical questions for years.

You tell the OP to do a search because it's been exhausted, but you gotta remember if they and others have new stuff to add, is it better to start a fresh conversation with those interested or to bring back an ancient thread, they seem to get ridiculed either way.......

 

[RD.]

What jjohnwm said. In fact, I said the same a couple yrs back In the dark side of the hobby thread.


Yes, many fish do die in the wild, or shortly after being removed from it.

98% of marine fish headed for the aquarium trade die within a year in the Philippines (mongabay.com)

Analysis: U.S. Pet Trade Imports 6 Million Tropical Fish Exposed to Cyanide Poisoning Each Year (biologicaldiversity.org)

Fishing With Cyanide | Hakai Magazine

Aquarium Trade Kills Millions Of Tropical Fish Each Year - The Dodo

Even if the stats are off, you get the idea. It ain't so romantic keeping wild fish, when you understand how they got to the bag you took them home in. A good read on how little anyone in the trade even cares. Google the following paper: A Systematic Review of the Ornamental Fish Trade with Emphasis on Coral Reef Fishes—An Impossible Task

Ever visit a wholesale facility, or shops that import fish each week? Same thing, millions die from the stress of simply being netted, and transported to another retail or wholesale facility somewhere. Then add in the disease factor, oops. I have seen entire shipments wiped out from one thing or another. Nasty business it is.

Fish die, lots of them, countless millions, long before the massive die off from the hands of ignorant hobbyists, such as the ones in this story.


It's just a simple fact really, as humans we kill tropical fish for our selfish pleasure.