800g Tank Reseal (for the 2nd time)!

Trouser Cough

Aimara
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Nov 7, 2022
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I'm going to be on this go-round like a bad rash.

Already got the tank emptied and dry w/ a much more serious fan howling away inside the tank than the one I used last time (and the time before). Pics shortly.

I'm w/ you, wednesday13 wednesday13 . No tape and she'll be a fatty for sure. Might just fill that dude up w/ a little puddle in the middle!

I still can't believe this. Thought I had it nailed.

I looked to see if it might be something to do w/ the tank being out of level but if it is it's too close for a 4' level to spot and it looks right to my critical eye.
 

Backfromthedead

Potamotrygon
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The tank has a structural issue, needs to be rebuilt. As i said before I believe it is flexing/deflecting outwards in the middle portion from both the sides and the bottom where the silicone is no longer effective between the glass panes. It holds water until the new reseal has been stretched apart, in this case it took only a few hours. If you attempt the same repair again you will have to devise some kind of external bracing to keep both the bottom and long sides from deflecting down and outwards under full water pressure, or continue dealing with the same leaks.

All just my opinion based on what I've read/seen here. Best wishes moving forward.
 

M1A1

Piranha
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Jun 10, 2013
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Is it that same spot where you found the gravel behind the silicone in the first page of this thread?
 

Trouser Cough

Aimara
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Definitely not the same spot as it was a couple seals back. All of that seal is gone and with it went the problem.

Truth be told I can't tell where the leak is coming from but wherever it is, it's on the opposite side of the tank this time and again appears to be low.

Current status:

Tank is drained, dry, stripped of the silicone bead and there's a big fan roaring inside. I'll have it spotless within a couple three days and my plan is to have another bead laid soon.

A couple of things I've noticed that I wasn't expecting:

- The silicone makes a crunchy sound when being stripped from the glass. Sort of like it might sound if there had been sand embedded in the bead.

- There still was a tiny bit of uncured material in one corner, and

- The silicone bead came apart in shear. Normally I expect a bead to seem a bit like a rubber band but not all of this was like that and in a couple spots it would easily separate from itself. I saved a sample and will upload a pic of it tomorrow.


The tank has a structural issue, needs to be rebuilt. As i said before I believe it is flexing/deflecting outwards in the middle portion from both the sides and the bottom where the silicone is no longer effective between the glass panes. It holds water until the new reseal has been stretched apart, in this case it took only a few hours. If you attempt the same repair again you will have to devise some kind of external bracing to keep both the bottom and long sides from deflecting down and outwards under full water pressure, or continue dealing with the same leaks.

All just my opinion based on what I've read/seen here. Best wishes moving forward.

Thank you. I've heard you and John refer to that seam between panes as a structural seam. I've always thought of it as a cushion and nothing more. I've seen videos of large tanks being built and it never has seemed to me like there was any particular voodoo associated w/ that seam and that it was unlikely to be more than the cushion I thought of it as. I am eager to understand this better. Please tell me more.
 

Backfromthedead

Potamotrygon
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Jul 12, 2017
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Fredericksburg va
Definitely not the same spot as it was a couple seals back. All of that seal is gone and with it went the problem.

Truth be told I can't tell where the leak is coming from but wherever it is, it's on the opposite side of the tank this time and again appears to be low.

Current status:

Tank is drained, dry, stripped of the silicone bead and there's a big fan roaring inside. I'll have it spotless within a couple three days and my plan is to have another bead laid soon.

A couple of things I've noticed that I wasn't expecting:

- The silicone makes a crunchy sound when being stripped from the glass. Sort of like it might sound if there had been sand embedded in the bead.

- There still was a tiny bit of uncured material in one corner, and

- The silicone bead came apart in shear. Normally I expect a bead to seem a bit like a rubber band but not all of this was like that and in a couple spots it would easily separate from itself. I saved a sample and will upload a pic of it tomorrow.





Thank you. I've heard you and John refer to that seam between panes as a structural seam. I've always thought of it as a cushion and nothing more. I've seen videos of large tanks being built and it never has seemed to me like there was any particular voodoo associated w/ that seam and that it was unlikely to be more than the cushion I thought of it as. I am eager to understand this better. Please tell me more.
At this point I would really like to see this thing up close before saying anything for certain. But if you found uncured silicone that's another issue, you simply didn't wait long enough or that bead is just too fat.

The silicone between the glass panels, what I call the structural seams, idk what actual term is, are what hold the tank together. The silicone only has strength right where its contacting glass to glass. The "seals" only waterproof the tank, do very little in actually holding the tank together.

Usually the structural silicone will be effective for the shelf life of the silicone--a long ass time. Whereas the seals, constantly submerged and exposed to varying degrees of salinity and light, degrade much faster. BUT if the glass panes are constantly being stretched apart, even a little bit, the structural seams will be compromised much faster than normal. This is what I think happened to your tank, but like I said Id really have to see the thing up close.

You mentioned no concentrated load earlier in the thread and you are correct, but that is not the issue. The middle-bottom seam of your 10' long tank is the weakest part of the tank simply because it is farthest away from the sides of the tank, where the bottom panel is also supported by the structural seam on the side panel. It's at this point I have more questions than answers, Is it just a single pane of 3/4" glass on the bottom? How is the bottom area of the tank constructed? Is the bottom panel indeed "floating", elevated off the stand and resting on the inner channel of that trim?

This games not over, I think you have to expand your playbook though. One option is a bottom eurobrace, or maybe just some thick strips of glass to reinforce the bottom seam in the middle. One caveat there is that a bottom eurobrace will be next to impossible to remove if it leaks again.

If you try another reseal, find some way to brace up both the bottom panel from underneath and the long side panels in the middle from outside BEFORE you fill test it. This could be bar clamps or heavy duty straps or some kind of DIY lumber jig bolted onto the stand. The point is, if it doesn't leak when braced up, we'll know a lot more about the problem if it leaks again when the braces come off :)

...and smooth out those seals, they should be much thinner imo, more of a concave cross section than triangular.
 
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Trouser Cough

Aimara
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I've thought about this in spare moments throughout the day and I appreciate your perspective.

- I don't know the thickness of the bottom pane and it would be tough to guess accurately.

- The bottom of the tank has no support beneath it at the mid span or any other point.

- I might be able to drill holes in the stand just beneath the tank and shoot structural foam in the void. Not a fan of that idea but...

- The upper and lower tank trim appears to only stabilize lateral movement.

- I s/b able to lift one end of the tank and slide hard foam insulation underneath the entire bottom as each of the side panes rest on that bottom pane

- I'll need to check the specs on PSI compression values for the different types of insulation as that's a metric boatload of weight. Probably the blue or pink insulation board would support it. I doubt the white styro stuff would have a chance.

- I'll need me some Samoans.

- I'd estimate tank, water, gravel, etc. to be roughly 8000# in a 40 sq' foot print. Two hundred pounds per square foot doesn't seem like all that much. I'm more than that each time I step in the tank.

- I have a sneaking suspicion that once I removed the seal and then teetered my own self over the top of the tank for a cleaning session... my weight in one spot pressing down on a compromised seal may have caused a problem.
 
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Backfromthedead

Potamotrygon
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You keep going back to the weight of the water on the bottom panel. It's not about that, it's about the FORCE on the SIDE PANELS of the aquarium.

Explained better than I can, bullet point 4:
 
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M1A1

Piranha
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Jun 10, 2013
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- I don't know the thickness of the bottom pane and it would be tough to guess accurately.

- The bottom of the tank has no support beneath it at the mid span or any other point.

- I s/b able to lift one end of the tank and slide hard foam insulation underneath the entire bottom as each of the side panes rest on that bottom pane
So based on your previous photos and responses (especially the underlined part in the quote above), it looks/sounds like the bottom is NOT floating. In this case, you should NOT put anything between the bottom pane and the top of the stand as it will only create pressure points, even if it's a full sheet of foam. Foam is only recommended when you have a non-floating bottom glass tank that also doesn't have any trim; very common in all the small rimless tanks these days. Usually the bottom pane is one 'size' thicker than the sides but yeah it's going to be difficult to measure.

Like Backfromthedead Backfromthedead said, you're dealing with a failed structural seam somewhere between the bottom and the sides. If you don't want to tackle that project, I wouldn't want to, then you have to reinforce it with internal bracing which is common on tanks this size, especially built in place. Same thickness as the bottom (lol), a couple inches wide, and as long as the internal side of the tank. They require a bit more precision than you've demonstrated on the reseal so far (sorry! :() but it's not an impossible task. It's also the only thing I can think of that might actually solve the problem without being able to inspect or even deconstruct a bit.

I don't have any rules on the internal silicone seal fillet but it's usually smoothed by finger or with an equivalent tool so you end up with something like 1/2" wide. I think DOW recommends 6mm (0.25") minimum on both 'substrates' which would mean the visible part is like 8.5mm (3/8"); maximum is "call tech support over 25mm" so thinner is better, imo. If you're really good with the caulk gun and have the tube cut right, you can extend your finger off the end of the tube and smooth the silicone as you drag along the seam. Then just walk away to let it cure and clean up after with a razor blade if needed.
 

Trouser Cough

Aimara
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Nov 7, 2022
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They require a bit more precision than you've demonstrated on the reseal so far (sorry! :() but it's not an impossible task.

I'm up for trying just about anything and if the tank's got to be deconstructed then I have no issue w/ that. The process so far hasn't (in my mind) seemed to be particularly rigorous; cleaning, inspection and bead replacement. In retrospect maybe I've been a little relaxed in my approach. Aside from being open to suggestion what precision is missing in this tank rehab? I'm not being sarcastic... I have never rebuilt a tank of this size. Not even close.
 
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