It is a great idea, but I don't see too many people paying for a calculator when they can just post up in the DIY forum..."How big of a sump do I need?"
Aquarium Sump Calculator
- Thread starter Jgray152
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I am going to be building designs as well so the effort is not lost, its just not completed.
If you use the space correctly, and think about it, put it on paper first, do calculations, you should be able to make a design that works. Most of the time you dont' need 30-40 liters of bio for your tank, so if you come close to that, you doing good.
I understand this which is why I have it laid out so you can calculate the exact siphon depth of your specific tank. If you use check valves, enter 0" for the siphon depth. you still have the Error margin to give you extra room. Although, I don't know how you are going to use a check valve on the intake to stop the siphon. I can see it on the output, I suppose this is probubly what you are talking about.
The variables are overflow type, size, flow rates, and tank dimensions. I look forward to seeing how thorough you were making the calculator.
Already taken into consideration.
The major flaw with the calculator is it requires the tank to already be set up and in operation to find the difference in the water height (when the pump is on and when it is off). The calculator won't help in the design phase without taking a wild guess.
You can't pick a sump without finding out the siphon volume from the tank anyways. Otherwise your going HUGE and ou don't need to. Usually you just have to measure the height of the water over the overflow if you have a siphon break in the pump output. So your tank doesn't need to be setup at all. IF you don't have a siphon break, then position where you would like the output to be in the tank and measure it. This is the PROPER way of designing an eficient system without assuming you need a HUGE tank. The 1/3 is not helpful at all. You could probubly go down to a 1/4 tank size but even then you still only using percentages. I would rather know the exact size and dimensions I need and if I care to go larger, I can.
I was going to design the calculater with a preprogramed "siphon" number but that only spells disaster.
Also, the "water level in sump" is easy to determin. Figure out the height of the pump, add an inch and go from there. This figure is VERY important because people don't think about the amount of volume already in the sump on top of the volume that may get sipohned from the tank.
Its locked because I am not sure if I wan't to sell this or not. So I didn't wan't to put the full operational version up yet. When I am finished with the calculator I will decide then. After all, I did say it was a DEMO
Go big or go home. That's how we do it.dave'stank;2701310; said:It seems to me that Camshaft likes anythink ]V[ONSTER!!!
Thats the rule that really annoys me because you dont need all of the volume. You really don't
Please, first lets take personal opinion out of this and give us some scientific foundations for this.
What do you mean when you say "you got nadda"? Did it not work for you? The Demo version will only find 5 pre determined sizes for you. It lets you know if you can use that size or not.
Not useful info. It gave me the same answer for 55g as well as 168g and please don't say they would be the same.
There is a big difference when looking a sump design. Especially when figuring dimensions to use.
A 48x24x24 will hold more water at a 6" water level in the sump then a 24x24x48 which will hold much less.
The 48x24x24 can hold LESS aquarium siphone water than the 24x24x48 sump. Both hold the same amount 119 gallons but may not be able to be use on the same thanks.
This is where the ASC comes in handy. The 1/3 rule does not perform this, I have to look further into this rule, but it could lead to overflows for smaller tanks... its just an assumption as of now but I will be looking into this further.
I don't have a problem making a W/d sump with a 24"x24"x48" tank, tho it would be a custom tank and not available to the general public @ a petco, wallyworld or feed & farm store (lets face it, that's the supply of choice for DIYers). And if the design is capable of syphoning off 119g from the main tank, obviously the designer shouldn't be DIYing and they haven't asked me
The point of this calc is to tell people what the minimum size sump they can use and get rid of the 1/3 volume because its giving people the wrong impression. The point of a large sump is to hold all the water which gets siphoned out from the aquarium when the pump shut off.
Ok, let's qoute the rule of thumb properly and stop refering to it as 1/3 just to make your cause look better.
And the point of a large sump is NOT to hold the water contained in the pipes of the syphon
The impression its giving is, Sump really suck and biological filtration so you need a TON MORE than a canister needs....
Where could you possibly read that into it??!
In a 65 Gallon Sump, I can design it to have over 650 liters of bio media. That is a CRAP LOAD! You don't need more than that.
You do realize that 650 liters is 171.7 gallons right?
And a point of order, the proper way to measure bio-media is in sq/ft of surface area.
You go larger to support the volume of water that needs to by siphoned from the tank during a pump shut down.
This is the crux of your misconception. You create a larger sump to to support more bacteria because the old sump could not content with the current volume of ammonia / nitrItes.
If you are designing the sump to hold the "syphon water" then it's just a holding tank.
Your formulas look convoluted when you mix metric and SAE, if you use the in the States stay with SAE.
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Not if you have a 6ft alligator gar and 2 fifty pound snapping turtles
I'd say you where under filtered.
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The problem with asking on this forum is members end up telling them to build a sump that is way to big.
See personal opinion again...it doesn't fit in an equation.
This is my professional assessment and not just an opinion for your edification.
Dr Joe
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Please, first lets take personal opinion out of this and give us some scientific foundations for this.
What do you mean when you say "you got nadda"? Did it not work for you? The Demo version will only find 5 pre determined sizes for you. It lets you know if you can use that size or not.
Not useful info. It gave me the same answer for 55g as well as 168g and please don't say they would be the same.
There is a big difference when looking a sump design. Especially when figuring dimensions to use.
A 48x24x24 will hold more water at a 6" water level in the sump then a 24x24x48 which will hold much less.
The 48x24x24 can hold LESS aquarium siphone water than the 24x24x48 sump. Both hold the same amount 119 gallons but may not be able to be use on the same thanks.
This is where the ASC comes in handy. The 1/3 rule does not perform this, I have to look further into this rule, but it could lead to overflows for smaller tanks... its just an assumption as of now but I will be looking into this further.
I don't have a problem making a W/d sump with a 24"x24"x48" tank, tho it would be a custom tank and not available to the general public @ a petco, wallyworld or feed & farm store (lets face it, that's the supply of choice for DIYers). And if the design is capable of syphoning off 119g from the main tank, obviously the designer shouldn't be DIYing and they haven't asked me
The point of this calc is to tell people what the minimum size sump they can use and get rid of the 1/3 volume because its giving people the wrong impression. The point of a large sump is to hold all the water which gets siphoned out from the aquarium when the pump shut off.
Ok, let's qoute the rule of thumb properly and stop refering to it as 1/3 just to make your cause look better.
And the point of a large sump is NOT to hold the water contained in the pipes of the syphon
The impression its giving is, Sump really suck and biological filtration so you need a TON MORE than a canister needs....
Where could you possibly read that into it??!
In a 65 Gallon Sump, I can design it to have over 650 liters of bio media. That is a CRAP LOAD! You don't need more than that.
You do realize that 650 liters is 171.7 gallons right?
And a point of order, the proper way to measure bio-media is in sq/ft of surface area.
You go larger to support the volume of water that needs to by siphoned from the tank during a pump shut down.
This is the crux of your misconception. You create a larger sump to to support more bacteria because the old sump could not content with the current volume of ammonia / nitrItes.
If you are designing the sump to hold the "syphon water" then it's just a holding tank.
Your formulas look convoluted when you mix metric and SAE, if you use the in the States stay with SAE.
.
Camshaft Ramrod;2699708; said:So I'm assuming putting that 170 gallon sump with 2000 scrubbies on my 210 gallon was overdoing it...
Not if you have a 6ft alligator gar and 2 fifty pound snapping turtles
I'd say you where under filtered.
.
The problem with asking on this forum is members end up telling them to build a sump that is way to big.
See personal opinion again...it doesn't fit in an equation.
This is my professional assessment and not just an opinion for your edification.
Dr Joe
.
Ok, 3 Eheim canisters with a volume 36 liters on 240 gallon... No Issues.
Read my above post. A 55 gallon can hold over 60-90 liters of bio media. Thats a lot. Especially for 168 gallon tank. So yes, it is usful. This is the point of the calc, this 1/3 rule is speculation with no scientific facts behind it.
All you are really telling people is that sumps really suck at bio filtration when you are telling people you need more media than a canister holds which produces excellent results..
I never said there was a problem with running that size sump, I was letting you know the difference in its holding volume at a specific height.
The point of a large sump is because you need more media than a canister holding 10 times less producing excellent results even thought the sump media open to oxygen? What gives?
From everyone that tells you to build a HUGE sump for a tank that could work with a 45 gallon sump. Read what I wrote above.
Have you measured the amount of media in properly built sumps? Can you honestly tell me a 55 gallon sump will not work on a 300 gallon tank? If you can, tell me why.
Many people design sumps with large open spaces that perform no function at all. This reduces the overall capacity and this is why you and others would think they need a bigger tank, when in fact, they could just "redesign" there sump to hold more if that was the case.
If you don't design a sump to hold the "siphoned water" you risk overflow when the pump shuts off. Common sense.
They are seporate, I use both because many who browse this forums are from other countries and they use the metric system. Liters is also a figure commonly used in the states when dealing with media volume.
For the last time, read carefully. When three canisters, totaling 36 liters of bio media at 900 GPH can run on a good stocked 240 gallon tank with perfect parameters, and then you tell people they need a 80 gallon sump which can hold over 100 liters, don't you think this is misleading?
Its not personal opinion, its factual. How can you tell me you need all this tons of media when 2-3 canisters hold 25%-30% of that media can perform the same job?
Another example, CPR Wet / Dry filter is for aquariums up to 400 gallons. It holds 96 liters of bio media. Thats a 55-60 gallon sump
There is one flaw in the calculator, I will be looking into this as well. For those of you with custom tanks which are VERY tall.
This calculator will not calculate the sump for that correctly.
Example, 108x24x144, odd sized tank but its over 1600 gallons. Calc says a 45 gallon sump can handle it. Which, it can handle the siphoned amount at 2" but nothing more. Plus it would never hold enough bacteria.
For standard sized tanks though, this calculator will work.
This calculator will not calculate the sump for that correctly.
Example, 108x24x144, odd sized tank but its over 1600 gallons. Calc says a 45 gallon sump can handle it. Which, it can handle the siphoned amount at 2" but nothing more. Plus it would never hold enough bacteria.
For standard sized tanks though, this calculator will work.
Justin, don't take it like you are being tag teamed, even though it looks that way. When you pioneer a new concept, you get to be the guy that has to defend the ideas. That is what peer review is all about. It can seem quite brutal, but if the theories stand in the end then everyone will know they are solid.
It is always good to know what the minimum sump size is, but it never hurts to go bigger. There are a number of additional variables that would have to be addressed before saying that a particular size is the absolute minimum.
To nail down a minimum volume of media you will need to know the amount of ammonia produced. The ammonia production is normally discussed in terms of 'stock levels' but really it is directly related to the amount of food that is added to the system. If the numbers of fish never change, the food will increase as the fish grow. Therefor you will need to have some sort of fudge factor in the calculation.
Another variable that needs to be addressed before nailing down a minimum volume is the media type. They all have different ratios of volume to surface area. One word of caution when using the information in the sticky thread is that the surface areas are given in square feet but in reality the measurements are actually square inches. The other problem with the sticky information is that it doesn't account for packing density. 'Fluffy' medias such as Bio-Bale are given a single surface area to volume ratio. When the sump is full of Bio-Bale, you can actually double what is already in there by packing it in tighter. Scrubbies are also subject to packing (my sump packed on its own to allow another 30% more).
It is always good to know what the minimum sump size is, but it never hurts to go bigger. There are a number of additional variables that would have to be addressed before saying that a particular size is the absolute minimum.
To nail down a minimum volume of media you will need to know the amount of ammonia produced. The ammonia production is normally discussed in terms of 'stock levels' but really it is directly related to the amount of food that is added to the system. If the numbers of fish never change, the food will increase as the fish grow. Therefor you will need to have some sort of fudge factor in the calculation.
Another variable that needs to be addressed before nailing down a minimum volume is the media type. They all have different ratios of volume to surface area. One word of caution when using the information in the sticky thread is that the surface areas are given in square feet but in reality the measurements are actually square inches. The other problem with the sticky information is that it doesn't account for packing density. 'Fluffy' medias such as Bio-Bale are given a single surface area to volume ratio. When the sump is full of Bio-Bale, you can actually double what is already in there by packing it in tighter. Scrubbies are also subject to packing (my sump packed on its own to allow another 30% more).
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