Calling all festivum experts!

Mythic Figment

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IMO, if you like Mesonauta, it's best not to think too much about the specific species. They are notoriously hard to identify and the differences usually come down to little things like fused bars, reticulated scales, and the longitudinal stripe that runs into the dorsal.

I have grown out two groups of wild juveniles purchased from Jeff Rapps. The first was sold to me as M. acora and the second as true M. festivus from Rio Tapajos. Both groups varied from fish to fish. There were silver fish in both groups and yellow fish in both groups. In the M. festivus group, the females turned yellow with dark black bars when spawning, taking on a bumblebee appearance. When they weren't spawning, the yellow faded and they went back to being silver fish with a black longitudinal stripe across the body.

I posted pictures of both groups as juveniles and adults on various cichlid forums and everyone told me they were something different. I literally had five different people identify the first group as five of the six described species. It got me nowhere.

There are slight differences in body shape and color in some of them, but I don't even think that has to be specific to the species of fish. I think they are highly variable within a group, just like things like severums and discus. Buy a group and grow them out. I find that they're usually enjoyable regardless of the species.

Also, regarding Wet Spot's listing, they are just using a generic name. A lot of people list them as Mesonauta festivus because that was a catch-all name for them, stemming from their old classification as Cichlasoma festivum. It's the same reason so many people erroneously list green severums as Heros severus, which comes from Cichlasoma severum. Those are outdated names that stick around in the trade as a general catch-all for multiple species in a single genus.

Here are some of my two different groups.











Severums were my first love in the hobby until I got into earth eaters. Mesonauta has been a genus I have come to and passed on for one reason or another many times and I figure it's time to actually keep some.

I am looking for a couple new breeding projects that could generate a little money/store credit to help offset the costs of maintaining all my tanks, so I think I will try these guys out and get some keyholes too. Was going to get the blue acaras, but I know they are notoriously hybridized with greens terrors and the picture Wetspot sent me looked like it had orange trim on the caudal fin. It's a shame really. I can't find true blue acaras anywhere anymore. :(

Anyways, thanks for the info guys. I will post pics once they settle in and we will see if they are large enough to properly ID.


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darth pike

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Actually, found a more updated visual guide ... given that one, top two pics are M. acora and the rest are M. mirificus. Still hate ID'ing this genus. Couldn't find the picture of the line drawings that have them all next to each other though, that helps quite a bit. Mine is in a storage unit.
 

ryansmith83

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True blue acaras do have orange trim in the dorsal fin. See Jim's wild pair here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtB1LTS1wto

That doesn't mean the tank-bred fish available in LFS aren't hybridized. You were lucky to have those turquoise acaras from Jeff. You should have kept those. It's hard to come across wild blue acaras.

No offense about the Mesonauta and Cleithracara, but they probably won't make you much money. Festivums and keyholes are mass-bred for the aquarium trade and are fairly easy to get your hands on if you want them. Only a handful of stores stock them but it's usually because demand is low, not because they don't have access to them. The best luck you'd have selling most things would be to offer something that's colorful at a small size or that's popular in the hobby at the moment. One thing I could always unload were angels, especially koi and Philippine Blues. Another thing people always jump at are rams, especially golds and electric blues. But you probably won't make a ton off keyholes or festivums. I stopped breeding the festivums because I couldn't give them away, unfortunately. It's a shame because they're really interesting fish to grow out and keep.
 

ryansmith83

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Actually, found a more updated visual guide ... given that one, top two pics are M. acora and the rest are M. mirificus. Still hate ID'ing this genus. Couldn't find the picture of the line drawings that have them all next to each other though, that helps quite a bit. Mine is in a storage unit.
The two top pictures are a male and female, of what Jeff sold to me as M. festivus 'Tapajos.' The last four are all the same group, and were supposedly wild-caught M. acora which Jeff now has on his list again.

Funny, we had a conversation about these exact fish back in 2007: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=181165
 

darth pike

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I tried to search my old CF posts on them, but they keep fubaring the passwords and I've given up.

So my first inclination on the second group was right. The top two could be M. festivus, I can't tell without the line drawings for sure.
 

Mythic Figment

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Jul 27, 2012
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True blue acaras do have orange trim in the dorsal fin. See Jim's wild pair here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtB1LTS1wto

That doesn't mean the tank-bred fish available in LFS aren't hybridized. You were lucky to have those turquoise acaras from Jeff. You should have kept those. It's hard to come across wild blue acaras.

No offense about the Mesonauta and Cleithracara, but they probably won't make you much money. Festivums and keyholes are mass-bred for the aquarium trade and are fairly easy to get your hands on if you want them. Only a handful of stores stock them but it's usually because demand is low, not because they don't have access to them. The best luck you'd have selling most things would be to offer something that's colorful at a small size or that's popular in the hobby at the moment. One thing I could always unload were angels, especially koi and Philippine Blues. Another thing people always jump at are rams, especially golds and electric blues. But you probably won't make a ton off keyholes or festivums. I stopped breeding the festivums because I couldn't give them away, unfortunately. It's a shame because they're really interesting fish to grow out and keep.
Interesting. Do you think blue acaras might sell well? I know they are pretty common too, but definitely more colorful earlier in life than festivum or keyholes.

I do regret giving them up. Sadly, I sold them to three different people, so there is no chance of getting them back. I just got too frustrated with them. Bought four wild turquoise acaras (2m/2f) and had a spawn in the first week they were in my old 125. Babies of the first clutch didn't stand a chance in the community tank, so when I saw the second set of eggs, I moved all four to a 55. They all became shy and refused to even come out of hiding. So I added dithers and saw no improvement. Added one of my severums to the tank thinking a familiar face might bring them out. It didn't. Thought maybe the decrease in tank depth might have made them shy, so I moved all four to a 40 breeder. Nothing. Eventually moved them to a 75 and after 3-4 weeks of no improvement in shyness (forget even seeing breeding behavior), I sold them. All these changes were done slowly too. With the exception of adding the dithers (which I allowed a week for improvement), every change was allowed 2-3 weeks to see improvements. I couldn't dedicate the 125 to just the pair. In hind sight, I should have left them in the 125 and just vacuumed the fry out into a small tank. Oh well. Live and learn, I guess. :/

I bred angels for a few years, but after that long dealing with them, they just don't hold any appeal to me anymore. I seem to want to keep and breed a lot of the fish people don't know about, can't afford or just don't like. I like rams, but if I had to breed some, I would definitely want it to be Bolivian rams, which of course are the hardest ram species to move. I guess it boils down to two things. I want to breed something that will be easy to moderate to sell and is a species I would be interested in breeding (at least for a few years until I get bored and move on to another project). Any suggestions?


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Aquanero

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One of the most interesting and IMO beautiful fish I've ever breed were Krobia Xinguenses. They just are not that well known and not too popular, I could never understand why. I couldn't give them away. Go figure. Jeff has some now and I'm seriously thinking of getting them again. These, chocolates, Mesonauta & wild angelfish are probibly my 4 favorite fish. Funny as much as I love wild angelfish any domestic strain has zero appeal to me.

Adult
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Grow outs
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Mythic Figment

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Jul 27, 2012
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One of the most interesting and IMO beautiful fish I've ever breed were Krobia Xinguenses. They just are not that well known and not too popular, I could never understand why. I couldn't give them away. Go figure. Jeff has some now and I'm seriously thinking of getting them again. These, chocolates, Mesonauta & wild angelfish are probibly my 4 favorite fish. Funny as much as I love wild angelfish any domestic strain has zero appeal to me.

Adult
View attachment 991692

Grow outs
View attachment 991693
Beautiful fish. I might get some eventually when I get some more space. :)


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darth pike

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They problem with gold saums is your fry will never look as good as the asian farm raised fry, since they hormone them up for better early coloration.
 
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