Electric Blue Jack Dempsey hybrid or not?

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If you liked my previous post, your gonna hate this one, or maybe not.
What I posted above is based on the only plausible means according to all I had ever been taught about hybridizing in genetics to include study of a hybrid white bass introduced into Texas lakes in the late 70s and early 80s which at first introduction was sterile by all counts.
The narrow time line of "discoveries" or developement of the electric blue ram & acara, along with gene splicing being admitted for flourescent colors of danios and white skirt tetras has not helped the argument whatsoever.
As of a bit over a year ago, when I acquired my pair of EBJD and searched to the best of my abilities throughout the internet, the only thing I found was argument after argument filled with allegations and speculations.
I fell back onto what I had been taught, and though a viable method, it is also an extensively time consuming and exceedingly difficult approach to cross species color gene transfer.

Prompted by Aquanero's adamant reply, I began a new search adding a que which was not in my previous searches... to wit: "sterility in female electric blue jack dempseys".
Thank you Aquanero... I struck gold... I believe this is a near absolute be all end all to the argument and it appeared on a site I had previously seen many times but they have since expounded on it with the release of the DNA TESTS.

http:/dempsey.fr.yuku.com/topic/3/The-origins-of-Electric-Blue-Jack-Dempsey

And if admin desires to do so, they may freely delete my previous post without any qualms from me, or simply leave it to show some of the basis for why this argument has been so two sidedly entrenched.

Again Aquanero, thank you.
 
Can somebody convert that to a link please... I don't know why it came up like that. My previous link postings worked fine on other addys.
Thanks IA.
Delete this too when done .thanks!
 
LOL, I fully understand how recessive genes work, but thanks for the science lesson, Burphy. That has nothing to do with definitive proof of whether a fish is a hybrid, or not. Lots of hybrid fish carry recessive genes.

Everyone is welcome to their opinion, but without proof to support that opinion that's all it really is. I got an EBJD when Rapps first brought them in years ago, and I'm still on the fence undecided. Not a hater, not at all, just undecided, with a lean towards them being pure.
And my lean was toward hybridized color transfer and excessive inbreeding to lock it in. As noted... "If the EBJD originated as a hybridized line"... the steps to do so would be quite difficult, but not impossible.
Like you, still on the fence but leaning hybrid and waiting for more information.
 
I've seen that link before, used to have it saved somewhere.

Bottom line as far as I'm concerned is the following from the link:
Since this test was completed, we have come to find that more information is needed to get a real solid and complete answer to the question, "Is Electric Blue Jack Dempsey a hybrid, or a color morph?".

The tests that still need to be completed are karyotype analysis, and full genome mapping of EBJDs, JDs and of each species suspected to be part of the hybrid genes. These tests are not cheap, and are not quick. Its possible these tests may never be run.

Despite the temporary dead end, we still have valuable discussion to be had on this topic.

So the question still remains, do you think Electric Blue Jack Dempsey's are a hybrid fish, or a color morph of Rocio octofasciata? You be the judge.
In other words, the evidence favors not a hybrid, but doesn't 100% rule it out. Until a peer reviewed paper is published that says different, you can debate till the cows come home, or consider it settled in your mind, but scientifically it's an open question that opinion or debate won't settle.
 
It sounds like there are actually 2 different debates. One has a definite answer, one does not.

Question one: is the EBJD a pure "Jack dempsey" or is it a hybrid?
Answer: it's pure "Jack dempsey".

I say Jack Dempsey in " " because that is assuming we call a JD a pure fish, not a hybrid.

Question two: did the "blue gene" come from a Jack Dempsey originally or from another fish?
Answer: unknown.

This is the part that's really debated.

In conclusion EBJD are not hybrids but their blue gene could potentially come from past hybridization.
 
Question one: is the EBJD a pure "Jack dempsey" or is it a hybrid?
Answer: it's pure "Jack dempsey".

I say Jack Dempsey in " " because that is assuming we call a JD a pure fish, not a hybrid.


You are assuming that the original pair of fish that produced the EBJD were each a pure JD. To date, there is no proof, scientific or otherwise, that proves that is the case.


Question two: did the "blue gene" come from a Jack Dempsey originally or from another fish?
Answer: unknown.

This is the part that's really debated.

In conclusion EBJD are not hybrids but their blue gene could potentially come from past hybridization.


LOL, then the fish would be a hybrid in all sense of the word, a fish created from two or more different species. This is exactly why I didn't want to go round in circles with you, as you clearly don't know what the hell you are talking about.






In other words, the evidence favors not a hybrid, but doesn't 100% rule it out. Until a peer reviewed paper is published that says different, you can debate till the cows come home, or consider it settled inyour mind, but scientifically it's an open question that opinion or debate won't settle.

Bingo!
 
It's "buphy" as in Buffy the vampire slayer

My apologies too!
I always thought the h was silent and it was pronounced like puppy.
 
Are all the EB variants, as see in acara, JD, and rams, related ...?
I should have said
The answer is a not so simple YES in that the genome for electric blue is present in each of them. One possibility is to take...
but this might not have gotten such a reply from Aquanero.
It all worked out. It's all good.
Debate still open.:confused:
I'm still leaning a little bit hybrid, but in truth...
I REALLY DON'T CARE!!!:pbut I still would like to know (if that makes any sense).
It's a gorgeous fish and I have some!:D;)
 
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