Electric Blue Jack Dempsey hybrid or not?
- Thread starter myster619
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http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...c/3/The-origins-of-Electric-Blue-Jack-Dempsey
This was what I was refering too. Back and fourth with no conclusion. Nothing to me that says it is a hybrid. Innocence until proven guilty, it's not a hybrid until you prove it's a hybrid. What about all the other color morphs of JD are they hybrids too? Why just the EBJD and not the Gold etc. Some JDs show a lot of red some show a lot of blue some show more gold and some are what we consider the classic looking JD. Different strains from different locations throughout the fishes range show different characteristic due to natural line breeding, available food sources, environmental conditions, predation evolution to either blend in with surroundings or attract mates, natural selection etc. The hybrid myth is thrown around too often and in my OPINION has not been proven to my satisfaction. Isolation of a specific gene to breed for desired characteristics has been going on since the Chinese started breeding carp/koi. Nothing new here and no mystery either IMO.
This was what I was refering too. Back and fourth with no conclusion. Nothing to me that says it is a hybrid. Innocence until proven guilty, it's not a hybrid until you prove it's a hybrid. What about all the other color morphs of JD are they hybrids too? Why just the EBJD and not the Gold etc. Some JDs show a lot of red some show a lot of blue some show more gold and some are what we consider the classic looking JD. Different strains from different locations throughout the fishes range show different characteristic due to natural line breeding, available food sources, environmental conditions, predation evolution to either blend in with surroundings or attract mates, natural selection etc. The hybrid myth is thrown around too often and in my OPINION has not been proven to my satisfaction. Isolation of a specific gene to breed for desired characteristics has been going on since the Chinese started breeding carp/koi. Nothing new here and no mystery either IMO.
Sounds a little like splitting hairs, then saying you have two different hairs. "Hybrid" may mean different things to different people or in different contexts, but the EBJD question is whether or not the color morph results from a naturally occurring Rocio octofasciata genetic variation or something artificially introduced from another fish, simple as that.
The problem I see on some of these forum debates is people seem to think they can settle a scientific or biological question simply by talking about it. Until the actual science is done to settle the question the best we can do is form intelligent opinions, but opinion isn't fact. One example was which was the true A. rivulatus. Lot of people had opinions, many, including some experts, thought it was the fish now known as A. stalsbergi. Then the science was done and rivulatus is the Ecuadorian fish after all. Another example is Cyphotilapia. People, including some experts, speculated that 7 stripe frontosa would be the 'true' frontosa, six stripe northern Cyphotilapia would be 'sp. North' and southern 6 stripe Cyphotilapia would be another species to be named later. Then the study was done, published, and peer reviewed-- the six stripe southern fish is now gibberosa, both the six and seven strip northern fish is frontosa, two species, that's it, and not what most were expecting.
So what we think doesn't prove anything until the science is done. In my opinion, I don't think they're a hybrid and what I've seen supports that conclusion and in my opinion you could argue there's no real evidence to the contrary, but...
In science there are various statistical methods (for example, "bootstrap values") for estimating the probability of something being correct based on the available data, which is often not complete. Scientists recognize and can statistically quantify the remaining uncertainty. DNA tests that have been done appear keep raising the probability that EBJD is Rocio octofasciata and not something else, but a scientist (or scientific mind) accepts and acknowledges the remaining element of uncertainty.
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I totally agree with the last few posts (neutrino and Aquanero) - but here's my rub.
Just as one should not be referring to these fish as hybrids, nor should one be stating with 100 certainty that they are pure, and scoffing at the notion that there IS that possibility - because there clearly is . There are enough hybrid cichlids currently on the market to sink a ship, a large ship, and many people still feel that a lot of them are pure species - such as the scores of albino African cichlid species that all magically emerged out of ponds in Florida and Asia within a few yrs of each other a decade or so ago. That's another naturally occuring gene that has been used to tweak numerous strains of cichlids now on the market. Just sayin.
I initially leaned towards hybrid years ago becaue the original story just seemed a bit sketchy to me. I hate it when the origins of a fish in question starts out with "I got the parents at the LFS", or "I got them from a friend", which is exactly how this story began. The parent fish were given to the original breeder by a friend, so the true origin has been left unknown since the very beginning.
It's all good, they are a beautiful strain of fish any way that one looks at this. I'm just old and jaded so my trust factor in the aquatic trade is typically pretty low.
Just as one should not be referring to these fish as hybrids, nor should one be stating with 100 certainty that they are pure, and scoffing at the notion that there IS that possibility - because there clearly is . There are enough hybrid cichlids currently on the market to sink a ship, a large ship, and many people still feel that a lot of them are pure species - such as the scores of albino African cichlid species that all magically emerged out of ponds in Florida and Asia within a few yrs of each other a decade or so ago. That's another naturally occuring gene that has been used to tweak numerous strains of cichlids now on the market. Just sayin.
I initially leaned towards hybrid years ago becaue the original story just seemed a bit sketchy to me. I hate it when the origins of a fish in question starts out with "I got the parents at the LFS", or "I got them from a friend", which is exactly how this story began. The parent fish were given to the original breeder by a friend, so the true origin has been left unknown since the very beginning.
It's all good, they are a beautiful strain of fish any way that one looks at this. I'm just old and jaded so my trust factor in the aquatic trade is typically pretty low.
I totally agree with the last few posts (neutrino and Aquanero) - but here's my rub.
Just as one should not be referring to these fish as hybrids, nor should one be stating with 100 certainty that they are pure, and scoffing at the notion that there IS that possibility - because there clearly is . There are enough hybrid cichlids currently on the market to sink a ship, a large ship, and many people still feel that a lot of them are pure species - such as the scores of albino African cichlid species that all magically emerged out of ponds in Florida and Asia within a few yrs of each other a decade or so ago. That's another naturally occuring gene that has been used to tweak numerous strains of cichlids now on the market. Just sayin.
I initially leaned towards hybrid years ago becaue the original story just seemed a bit sketchy to me. I hate it when the origins of a fish in question starts out with "I got the parents at the LFS", or "I got them from a friend", which is exactly how this story began. The parent fish were given to the original breeder by a friend, so the true origin has been left unknown since the very beginning.
It's all good, they are a beautiful strain of fish any way that one looks at this. I'm just old and jaded so my trust factor in the aquatic trade is typically pretty low.
This. In today's hobby, it's safer to assume guilty until proven innocent when it comes to hybrids. Sad, but true in an age when you have to buy imported convicts just to make sure you get a pure species.
I agree the hybrid issue is a slippery slope and we can easily go off on a tangent. I'm not, nor have I ever been a fan of hybrids. However this thread is about EBJDs and my comments and statements are solely addressing the question of whether or not an EBJD is a hybrid or a pure JD bred for a particular characteristic ie an electric blue color morph. So to that end and that end only are my opinions directed.
I wasn't trying to derail into the hybrid issue really, just stating I tend to the agree that if it can't/hasn't been proved conclusively with the science, we should remain sceptical at the very least.
My bad, you are right. They are really line breed fish with a certain gene. It takes a lot of inbreeding to get this, which is why they are so hard to keep and weak. You can't produce a hybrid from the same species. They are JD X JD lol. Just take the bluest ones and breed them over and over. Same with electric blue rams and acaras.
Now the wild JDs from Cenote Escondido are the bluest natural occurring morph.
