HOLE IN THE HEAD + THIAMINASE - What you need to know!!!!!!

[Piscineidiot]

Well, the initial post is indeed interesting, and there have been studies that support the fact that thiaminase heavy diets can be detrimental to fish.

http://afs.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-pdf&doi=10.1577%2FH03-078.1

This is a peer-reviewed scientific article about thiamine deficiency causing early mortality syndrome in salmonids. Therefore, we can surmise that thiaminase is not broken down by the stomach acids and is either retained in the gut, or absorbed through the walls of the gut.

Thiaminase heavy diets also seem to affect alligators, as this paper details:

http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/content/abstract/44/2/280

However, the effects of thiaminase alone are not the sole cause of mass mortality in alligators as this next paper argues:

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1656/1528-7092(2007)6[97:ADIRTA]2.0.CO;2

Therefore, while high levels of thiaminase does have an affect on a fish's (or reptile's) physiology, the exact level of the effect is uncertain. Moreover, thiaminase is obviously dealt with by different kinds of fish differently. Fish that don't normally ingest large amounts of thiaminase can obviously not be expected to deal with large concentrations of it well. Likewise, fish that normally ingest large amounts of it will have evolved a physiological way to dispose of it.

I also noticed that thiamine deficiency seems to be affect central nervous systems most severely, and so don't understand the argument that it's preventing fish from producing adequate fleshy tissues etc.?

http://afs.allenpress.com/perlserv/....1577/1548-8667(1995)007<0269:PABMOT>2.3.CO;2

http://www.springerlink.com/content/j252n273p0678812/

Granted, the papers I just linked you to go into examples of deformed fry, but in my mind, none of those deformities are pertinent to the sensory pores that HLLE affects.

Studies involving thiamine deficiencies and humans also centre around brain disorders and central nervous system affects. I realise that humans do not have the same sensory apparatus us fish, nor the same physiology, but if reptiles and mammals appear to express thiamine deficiency in a similar manner, as well as some fish fry, what are the odds that adult cichlids in particular will express the disorder in a different manner?

In fact, the below link mentions nothing about sensory pores despite mentioning nervous disorders and haemhorraging...

http://www.fao.org/docrep/X5738E/x5738e07.htm

 

[Scatocephalus]

I'm going to add something based on 30+ years of fish keeping expereince. I have never seen a fish develop hole in the head that naturally comes from mineral laden waters regardless of how crappy their diet or water quality is.

Think about it. Have you ever seen a Malawian or Tan***ikan cichlid with LLE?? It is almost 100% exclusive to SA species; Heros, Symphysodon, Astronatus, Crenicihla, Hoplarchus, etc. I have seen on very rare occasion CA cichlids develop some form of LLE but as mentioned it is extremely rare.

I have seen SA species which by all standards are kept in excellent conditions with high quality diets still develop LLE.

 

[cockroach]

I don't have nearly the scientific knowledge to compare to the likes of miles, lupin, brianp or piscineidiot but I will add my personal observations.

I have had my Dat for almost 4 years now. He is fed mainly goldfish and live freshwater shrimp as he refuses anything dead or prepared. Occasionally or more so rarely, he will get a frog or mealworms, and sporadically gets dojo loaches. Now I have been trying to keep up with discussions on this and other forums about the pros and cons of feeding live.

Aware that a staple diet of goldfish alone is bad for a fish, I have taken my own measures to counteract it. I often gut load my feeders, and at regular intervals ( about every 5-8 weeks) I inject some of the feeders with vitamins and drop them into the tank so the fish gets these vitamins internally and not through the water. He dat has never gotten sick and remains as stable and vibrant as ever even during me moving house. Does the injecting of the vitamins into the feeder fish actually help in fighting the effects of the thiaminase? And will an internal parasite medication injected into feeders in the same way prove beneficial to preventing the onset of HITH.

I also bought 2 adult oscars a few years back that were showing the start of HITH, I kept up my weekly 30-50% water changes and fed higher quality foods and it cleared up on its own, which led me to believe that water quality and food quality both play an integral role in combatting HITH. The oscars eat many goldfish and live shrimp with the rare frogs and dojo loaches and worms as well as pelleted foods, namely arowana pellets for color and TetraMonster XL pellets and Delik Grand Fish pellets. With this varied a diet I can see absolutely no traces of the hole in the head in my oscars or any other fish.

Thanks for a great post miles.

 

[Err]

Great read, and lots of info and I appreciate the work you did to condense all this info for us readers here at MFK. I have never used goldfish feeders myself for this reason. However I do Keep a varried supply of fat healthy Mollies and Swordtails in some 20G breeders, and my Oscars LOVE them, however they get quite a bit of veggies and insects as well and I have never had to deal with HITH (*knock on wood*) With no scientific proof I 100% belive that a healthy diet with a lot of variety and top notch husbandry are the BEST way to prevent most diseases.

 

[KindredSpirit]

There are some that believe using carbon is linked to HITH. I will try to find some info re this.

 

[nospeed411]

What is strange is the sheer randomness of it at times. I consider myself to be quite diligent with water quality and feeding high quality food. That being said I just had to put down one of my prized 7 inch red severums due to HTH. We got a pair of them about 4yrs ago and they have been the stars of my tank. The female started showing signs of HTH about a year ago for no reason. It progressively got much worse , so much so that she started getting the "shakes". When I did the move to the 90 last week she was to the point I deemed it necessary to put her down. My question is why??? These 2 have never been fed live and water quality has always been on par. I just dont understand it.

 

[KindredSpirit]

Do you use carbon in your tank?

 

[KindredSpirit]

This is what we advise when HITH affects a Discus.

HITH is mostly caused by nutritional deficiencies, which can be the result of a poor diet or intestinal parasites robbing the fish of nutrients.

Bump the temp to 93-95 degrees, make sure there is plenty of aeration, add salt at 3 TBS per 10 gallons and run a course of Metro. Do this all for 10 days and then feed your discus a diet very rich in protein and minerals. HITH should heal within the next few months...

Worms, if available, are a fantastic source of nutrition when it comes to HITH!

 

[jmh]

Miles,
My peacock bass only eat live feeders. I've tried worms and shrimp pieces, they won't eat them. I am treating the tank with "hole in the head guard", with several water changes. They don't seem to be getting better. Do you know of a live food souce they might eat? Thanks...jmh

 

[szymon328]

hey, are u against feeding your fish home bred fish? im considering breeding convicts and im just wondering if theyre any healthier than goldfish. is it possible to gut load them and have them be healthy?