Gorgeus rays! isnt inbreeding ok for the first few generations? i know it can go futher back in reptiles, im going to be doing a lot of studies on this over the next two years at college.
Hybrid + close relative =???
- Thread starter ato
- Start date
yes they are some awsome rays and ide love to own one, BUT just because they look this nice dosent mean they should be interbread.
im a strong believer that we should try our best not to interbreed no matter how good the babys will be.
you carnt say its wrong then change your mind because they turned out nice.
if they had looked nasty and deformed then you all would of been saying how wrong it is to have done it.
im a strong believer that we should try our best not to interbreed no matter how good the babys will be.
you carnt say its wrong then change your mind because they turned out nice.
if they had looked nasty and deformed then you all would of been saying how wrong it is to have done it.
Theres obviously a lot of research and thought gone into this breeding program,apart from the stunning patterns created the balance of the species used looks compatible,great shape and posture these rays.Im blown away by their beauty,having said that im very much a purest,though i see no harm provided these fish are bred for the ornamental fish hobby,each to their own, its been done for generations with other fish......why not Rays.
Still i will stick with my lacality Rays.
Thanks for sharing.
Still i will stick with my lacality Rays.
Thanks for sharing.
sharp tooth;3458396; said:
i agree with this 100%
its not right would any of you saying they look great sleep with your mother or sister just because you may get a great looking child
they may look great yes but its how this ray was made that matters
many many people who buy rays buy pairs from the same breeder meaning they will also be breeding brother and sister this is wrong dont force animals into do something you wouldnt do yourself
Sorry guys i didnt read the beginning of the thread properly....just thought these fish were hybridsand thats all,scrolled straight onto the pictures and was blown away by their beauty,i have to agree inbreeding is wrong but its interesting that they all appear perfect fish....physically that is.....probably have a low level IQ though...lol !
Very nice rays everybody, even though some are inbred.
Can you please tell me what type of ray this is? cheers
sea_01;3458322; said:
Can you please tell me what type of ray this is? cheers
I think the guy who posted is trying to say that those are F2 hybrids.
I think there is a miscommunication on relative ray- It probably means the hybrid PDR/Pearls related species, which is referring to PDR. (What is posted looks like a bad translation from Chinese - I face this problem when reading articles from Dutch and German Ray sites too)
By F1 or F2 I mean-
PDR mixed with Pearl = F1 PDR/Pearl
F1 PDR/Pearl mixed with PDR = F2 PDR/Pearl
F2 PDR/Pearl mixed with PDR = F3 PDR/Pearl
The father may not be the same PDR but rather just the same species. (Although I will not rule out using a white based Pearl as the 'relative.') This information is usually not shared by ray breeders to protect their investment.
After 2-3 generations of such breeding, you get pattered rays with the contrast of black and beige to black and white. I think those rays are just one generation away from achieving that.
I'm currently in the process of growing out F2 PDR/Pearls pups to make F3 PDR/Pearls as well, with 2 completely separate PDR/Pearl bloodlines from 5 totally different unrelated parents.
By F2 some of the pups are Black Diamond look alikes, but a little off white. I'm pretty sure F3 should have a couple of pure black and white rays without greys or beige.
On a Separate Note
Actually even 1 generation of father daughter inbreeding do not produce any deformities because of the wider gene pool enjoyed by hybrid rays. This is also a common practice in producing pure bred pups of a canine nature.
All pups produce adapt well to tank conditions and breed earlier than pure PDRs.
I think there is a miscommunication on relative ray- It probably means the hybrid PDR/Pearls related species, which is referring to PDR. (What is posted looks like a bad translation from Chinese - I face this problem when reading articles from Dutch and German Ray sites too)
By F1 or F2 I mean-
PDR mixed with Pearl = F1 PDR/Pearl
F1 PDR/Pearl mixed with PDR = F2 PDR/Pearl
F2 PDR/Pearl mixed with PDR = F3 PDR/Pearl
The father may not be the same PDR but rather just the same species. (Although I will not rule out using a white based Pearl as the 'relative.') This information is usually not shared by ray breeders to protect their investment.
After 2-3 generations of such breeding, you get pattered rays with the contrast of black and beige to black and white. I think those rays are just one generation away from achieving that.
I'm currently in the process of growing out F2 PDR/Pearls pups to make F3 PDR/Pearls as well, with 2 completely separate PDR/Pearl bloodlines from 5 totally different unrelated parents.
By F2 some of the pups are Black Diamond look alikes, but a little off white. I'm pretty sure F3 should have a couple of pure black and white rays without greys or beige.
On a Separate Note
Actually even 1 generation of father daughter inbreeding do not produce any deformities because of the wider gene pool enjoyed by hybrid rays. This is also a common practice in producing pure bred pups of a canine nature.
All pups produce adapt well to tank conditions and breed earlier than pure PDRs.
Hi,
I think you are talking about incest when you are mentioning interbreeding and not cross-breeding of different species. Am I right?
I think, that humans or even mammals and rays/fishes cannot be compared one by one, when discussing interbreeding (incest). There are LOTS of examples where different fishes have had to be interbred because of a lack of new blood, just for resarch or to preserve a certain mutation for decades once and once again, whithout mentioning any defects
I have read about fishy examples for strict interbreeding over more than 30 years or in other cases over at least 20 generations without ANY negative consequences. German scientists confirmed this fact to me verbally.
I do not state, that it's good to interbreed, but in my opinion, it's nothing but an old prejudice that IN THE CASE OF FISHES it's always a bad thing, which should be avoided by all means!
I own 4 P14 males, which descent from 4 different wc parent-pairs and 6 females out of 3 completely different lines, so interbreeding is no problem for me and therefore I do not need to argue for interbreeding
but its a fact, that its not such a big problem by far, as a lot of people seem to think it is!
Regards
Stefan
I think you are talking about incest when you are mentioning interbreeding and not cross-breeding of different species. Am I right?
T1KARMANN;3458537; said:
I think, that humans or even mammals and rays/fishes cannot be compared one by one, when discussing interbreeding (incest). There are LOTS of examples where different fishes have had to be interbred because of a lack of new blood, just for resarch or to preserve a certain mutation for decades once and once again, whithout mentioning any defects
I have read about fishy examples for strict interbreeding over more than 30 years or in other cases over at least 20 generations without ANY negative consequences. German scientists confirmed this fact to me verbally.I do not state, that it's good to interbreed, but in my opinion, it's nothing but an old prejudice that IN THE CASE OF FISHES it's always a bad thing, which should be avoided by all means!
I own 4 P14 males, which descent from 4 different wc parent-pairs and 6 females out of 3 completely different lines, so interbreeding is no problem for me and therefore I do not need to argue for interbreeding
but its a fact, that its not such a big problem by far, as a lot of people seem to think it is!Regards
Stefan